Kenny_McCormic wrote: I don't understand atheism or creationism, you can't prove jack squat either way. Which is why I'm a apathetic agnostic, I just don't care because you can't prove anything.

Thats deGrasse's stance and I think he's one of the smartest people in the world. Its more or less in his case "I have better things to worry about."

dculberson wrote: However, I know for a fact that a devout member of any other religion is just as likely to get into heaven.

?

So it's what you believe?

dculberson wrote: Maybe fact is the wrong word, but I stand by the sentiment.

Thought maybe you had inside information for a minute there. Our own GRM messiah.

I wrote three paragraphs. I tried really hard to just address facts. I couldn't express some important points without fundamentally saying that some folks' observations or assumptions appeared to be incorrect or at least dubious, and I couldn't figure out how to do that without triggering some folks' "bash" sensors...

I deleted the paragraphs.

I hope we can all get better at agreeing to disagree.

[EDIT: Ha! Now what I've written above feels resigned and insular, which may be even worse than torquing off folks who think differently...]

To lighten things up a bit...

ransom wrote: I wrote three paragraphs. I tried really hard to just address facts. I couldn't express some important points without fundamentally saying that some folks' observations or assumptions appeared to be incorrect or at least dubious,

If I said anything incorrect, please feel free to correct me. I am still learning.

By page 37 of this thread, non-believers still won't believe, and believers won't stop believing. So....

In reply to Klayfish:

No one is arguing. I don't see the problem with a discussion regarding religion.

Can we just go ahead and lock this thread now?

Did I miss something?

I agree with klayfish's initial post.

I respect anyone's religion and have no problem being silent during any of their rituals. I was raised a catholic and really started to question god after my fathers death. I basically turned atheist and currently think of myself as agnostic more than anything these days. It doesn't bother me one way or another what religion someone is and I have friends of all faiths. While a religion maybe self defining for some, its not a prerequisite or something I consider when choosing my friends.

It really is a shame that some people have intolerance of other's religious beliefs(including atheist and agnostics). While I did enjoy religiousless from bill mahar, I would never go out and be that much of an shiny happy person to someone because of religion.

N Sperlo wrote: Thats deGrasse's stance and I think he's one of the smartest people in the world. Its more or less in his case "I have better things to worry about."

That's pretty much how I feel. If there is or is not a God, if there is an afterlife, reincarnation, or oblivion, would that change how I want to live my life? No. So it doesn't matter to me. I will spend my time living and concern myself with more practical matters.

N Sperlo wrote:

Kenny_McCormic wrote: I don't understand atheism or creationism, you can't prove jack squat either way. Which is why I'm a apathetic agnostic, I just don't care because you can't prove anything.

Thats deGrasse's stance and I think he's one of the smartest people in the world. Its more or less in his case "I have better things to worry about."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_deGrasse_Tyson

When asked if he believed in a higher power, Tyson responded: "Every account of a higher power that I've seen described, of all religions that I've seen, include many statements with regard to the benevolence of that power. When I look at the universe and all the ways the universe wants to kill us, I find it hard to reconcile that with statements of beneficence."

I too agree he's one of the smartest people alive. My mom thinks he's an idiot because of statements like these.

I'm a pastor. I have atheist friends, Christian friends, Muslim friends, a couple Buddhist friends. We all get along because we have respect for one another. I learned a long time ago that religion is mostly subjective. I believe in things like the scientific method and even the theory of evolution, but I also believe in prayer and spirituality. I have no problems with all of these things because, at least right now, the God I believe in can't be proved or disproved. What I experience is different than what you might experience. That's just the way the world is.

There are many people who would run me out of town for the things that I believe. Luckily I pastor a community that understands me. They may not always agree with me but we're human and the beauty of humanity is that we're always learning. We really berkeley it up sometimes but we grow from it.

Not really sure where I'm going with this. Just figured I'd throw my two cents in. I was raised in a Christian house. I had my tumultuous youth. Explored Islam and Buddhism and even visited a Hare Krishna house in college. For some reason though I could never "let go of God." Religion is an interesting thing.

Patio's will eventually be made from this thread........also, @ the OP's find.....thats epic.

Also, I was born into a roman catholic family, but have since gotten away from it.....bounced around learning about the others without having a nun literally kick my arse. I still haven't sided with one, but from outside the box, they're all fairly similar. Also, I wouldn't call myself an atheist, but I wouldn't call myself any other religion either.

Gearheadotaku wrote: Bill Mahar (probabaly spelled wrong) did a film called "religulos" (Again , may be spelled wrong) that was also very good.

[ OPINION!!! ]
Didn't like it....too snarky, too many cheap shots.....lots of paying lip service given to the idea of treating people with respect, not much of that happening.

[ /OPINION!!! ]

red5_02 wrote: Religion is an interesting thing.

It is... and I could go on about humanities "need" for religion. But from a more personal point of view, it's a simple matter of faith.I have a lot respect - perhaps envy - for those with devout faith. They often enjoy a certain peace and comfort I will never know.

In reply to Ian F:

Not necessarily. I have known what I call 'bound up' persons of faith as well as some very serene atheists.

Klayfish wrote:

integraguy wrote: but when you look around you, how can you say "there is no God"

Easily, very easily. I'm a very firm non-believer. But I still have full respect for those that do. The way I look at it, I can't "prove" I'm right, just like believers can't "prove" they're right. Everyone is entitled to believe what they wish, which I think helps explain why there are so many religions and different offshoots/sects of each one. I've never asked a very religious person to agree with me, only respect my opinion.

This is interesting, because I absolutely agree with both of these posts.

Guess it comes down to what you want to call God. I know what it is for me and I'm pretty comfortable with my beliefs. What I call God is very evident in the universe around me, but it's very easy for me to see that there is no old man in the sky looking down on us with an intense interest in me winning the lottery or a TV game show.

This reminds me of a Tshirt that said, "I was an atheist until I realized that I'm a God."

One thing that might help bridge any gaps... many times Atheists use the unbelievable (to them) nature of the bible to believe that God doesn't exist. Keep in mind that just because the God of the bible may not exist for you, it doesn't mean that A god might exist. Make sense?

I think too many people are black and white about it; either the God of the bible does exist, or she can't exist because they find the bible to be non-credible. Instead of jumping on one side or the other, there is the philosophical plausibility in the grey area:

1- the god of the bible exists as written
2- there is no god because the bible is not believable to a person, -or-
3- a god could exist, just not as the bible describes (or incorrectly describes)

3 is a situation that rarely gets discussed in these discussions. It seems to always be 1 or 2; the polar opposites

curtis73 wrote: 3- a god could exist, just not as the bible describes (or incorrectly describes) #3 is a situation that rarely gets discussed in these discussions. It seems to always be 1 or 2; the polar opposites

This. I hardly think that God begins and ends in one book written by men in caves, fields and mud huts 2000 years ago.

PHeller wrote: I think its amazing that modern religions still refer to God as being male, as a singular being, as this guy you'll recognize in the afterlife. "Hey God, how ya doin?"

That's more an artifact of having original texts written in a language that used gendered pronouns to refer to a lot of things that weren't gendered, than anything else. And some metaphors that, if you take a casual glance at them, could be read that way. Orthodox Christians may teach of a God the Father and use "he" to refer to them - but they don't actually think "he" is technically male.

I think it would do Christianity (and other religions) a great deal to quit referring to God as a being, and start thinking of God as being an inexplicable force. You can believe in Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, or any other decedent-to-earth figure and still have it mesh with God as this inexplicable force.

The trouble is, you're asking Christianity to reject a good deal of what makes Christians, well, Christians. Although actually the thing they'd find offensive there is not "force" but "inexplicable". Christians hold that God is a spirit - probably close enough to what you're thinking of "force" - but that he has emotions, and willpower, and reason. Beyond humans to be able to fully comprehend, yes, but it's also a Christian tradition that humans can partially comprehend God and can, by reason, progressively add more comprehension to human knowledge.

Just wanted to clear that up - as a Christian, I think it's important to understand why people might not believe in Christianity, and I also prefer any atheists listening to have a better idea of what they don't believe in.

curtis73 wrote: One thing that might help bridge any gaps... many times Atheists use the unbelievable (to them) nature of the bible to believe that God doesn't exist. Keep in mind that just because the God of the bible may not exist for you, it doesn't mean that *A* god *might* exist. Make sense?

It depends on your definition of a god.

curtis73 wrote: This reminds me of a Tshirt that said, "I was an atheist until I realized that I'm a God." 1- the god of the bible exists as written 2- there is no god because the bible is not believable to a person, -or- 3- a god could exist, just not as the bible describes (or incorrectly describes) #3 is a situation that rarely gets discussed in these discussions. It seems to always be 1 or 2; the polar opposites

Funny t-shirt...haven't seen it.

But for your points above, it doesn't have to be just the bible or nothing. As others mentioned, there's the Torah and lots of other books. I think for most non-believers, including myself, it's not that I don't think the bible is believable. I don't think any of the accounts of a God are believable. But again, not something I could ever prove and not something I'd expect a believer to believe.