Letting Go Of God

I'm a Catholic.

I was born a Catholic, baptised a Catholic, got my first confession, first Holy Communion, and Confirmation. I was married in the Catholic Church. I will likely spend my whole life considering myself a Catholic.

My wife (who is not a Catholic, but not really anything specifically else), has asked me about my religion, and I admit that I do not feel that I have fully reconciled my religious beliefs with myself, or anyone else. Here in the USA take a decidedly different approach to religion than much of the rest of the world. In many countries, a specific religion is part of the culture. While Christianity predominates here in the USA, we have dozens, maybe hundreds of different variations on Christianity. We also have a large Jewish population, a good smattering of your Eastern religions, atheists, etc. We're a melting pot. So, it seems to me like we treat religion with the same democratic bent that we treat politics with.

My Catholicism comes from my Italian heritage. That heritage is important to me- there's a lot that I appreciate within. But in conjunction with that, somehow blended in, is this very American aspect to religion that allows me to disagree with the Catholic Church on some issues. The biggest issue I have with the Church is that my wife, who I love, and who was allowed to marry me within the Church, is not allowed to receive communion when I do. I know it also bothers her, too. I understand the Catholic Church's stance here, but I do not agree with it.

Will this cause me to abandon the Church? No. Will it cause us to attend Mass less frequently? Absolutely. We show our faces inside a Church about 3 to 4 times per year. I enjoy Mass, and if the priest is good, I have gotten a lot out of it. When I was younger, my parents took us to Mass EVERY Sunday. I went to Catholic grade school, and a Jesuit HIgh School. I like my faith. I just don't practice it. But apart from some of my differences with organized religion (and I do have issues with more than just the Catholic Church; living in the South I've got all sorts of reasons to avoid religion) I just don't feel that the benefit is there for me- and certainly not for my wife, who feels uncomfortable and left out. I consider myself a fairly moral person, I like to think I was raised right and had good values instilled in me, and I can make decisions using those tools that are right and just.

I just realized, this debate isn't really about religion. It's about God. Funny that the two are inseparable in our minds this way. But I realize that everyone gets to where they are in their life in a unique way. Where I am is basically this: I can't prove there is a God, and I can't prove there isn't, but when I look around, and just see the power of everything that's in existence, I just can't for even a second believe that there isn't a divine force behind it all.

Plus, I realized that if I were God, I'd probably be awful lonely, bored, and anxious to do stuff. Creating a universe and a bunch of planets and some life would be pretty cool. Oh yeah, that's right. I think God's an engineer, a geek, and a nerd. So there's you're Trinity. ;-)

I tend to believe in random chance. Part of it is that in the sheer vastness of the cosmos (or at least the part we can see) there are no signs of other life. You'd think that if there were a supreme being he/she/it would want to spread that whole creation thing around. The imperfectness of life as we know it (birth defects, dies of old age, gets sick all the time, develops cancer when exposed to natural forces such as sunlight etc etc) also indicates an ongoing random chance thing.

Curmudgeon wrote: I tend to believe in random chance. Part of it is that in the sheer vastness of the cosmos (or at least the part we can see) there are no signs of other life. You'd think that if there were a supreme being he/she/it would want to spread that whole creation thing around. The imperfectness of life as we know it (birth defects, dies of old age, gets sick all the time, develops cancer when exposed to natural forces such as sunlight etc etc) also indicates an ongoing random chance thing.

that's an intriguing basis, to me.

if you made me pick a reason i am so sure there is a God, i would choose; inexplicably perfect timing.

OK, I finally figured out how I can contribute to this thread without adding to noise:

Christian, what do you believe?

I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried;
on the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

belteshazzar wrote:

Curmudgeon wrote: I tend to believe in random chance. Part of it is that in the sheer vastness of the cosmos (or at least the part we can see) there are no signs of other life. You'd think that if there were a supreme being he/she/it would want to spread that whole creation thing around. The imperfectness of life as we know it (birth defects, dies of old age, gets sick all the time, develops cancer when exposed to natural forces such as sunlight etc etc) also indicates an ongoing random chance thing.

that's an intriguing basis, to me. if you made me pick a reason i am so sure there is a God, i would choose; inexplicably perfect timing.

I think this is one of those classic spots where religion and "not" line up on opposite sides of exactly the same item... I tend to find a really enjoyable sense of wonder at seeing the incredibly beautiful and unlikely things that crop up given a few billion years and a truly mindbending amount of space

Of course, I get all stoked when I throw something at the garbage and it balances on the rim.

You lost me at

Julia Sweeney

But great title. I may have to check it out based on that alone. It has been tough to let go, but deep in my down it's just accepting what I've always known to be true. No offense to anyone else and their beliefs. I'm not going to say "You're wrong," and I don't think any less of you.

Curmudgeon wrote: I tend to believe in random chance. Part of it is that in the sheer vastness of the cosmos (or at least the part we can see) there are no signs of other life. You'd think that if there were a supreme being he/she/it would want to spread that whole creation thing around. The imperfectness of life as we know it (birth defects, dies of old age, gets sick all the time, develops cancer when exposed to natural forces such as sunlight etc etc) also indicates an ongoing random chance thing.

I believe similarly, in a sense that The Creator does not interfere and leaves it up to Us rather than chance. We intervene Ourselves. We are made in His image, we are given Her abilities. We create Our own miracles. That is why We pray or cast spells or talk to Our cars.

I left a little hint to a major belief of Mine.

Another vote for Julia. When someone honestly asks me about my own deconversion process, I often state that for me, it wasn't a choice. It was a discovery.

I think what makes the discussion so difficult is that we're having it in the United States. Most atheists here are actually former theists, and their reaction to losing their faith doesn't always come out as a funny one-woman stage act. I know a lot of the younger folks I see in atheism forums feel some sort of betrayal by their parents or something, and it turns them angry. It doesn't do them any good, and it doesn't do our society any good.

Personally, I don't care if gods exist or not. All I want to do is to be able to admit I don't believe in one publicly without starting a small riot. Oh, and the end of "blue laws". The English girl I dated years ago asked why so many atheists in the US are so much more confrontational than those in Europe & the UK..until she tried to buy a bottle of wine on Sunday in Georgia.

EDIT: said something that sounded like a bash on a re-read. Deleted it.

The following is simply a response to tuna with my beliefs listed under each line. It is not commentary, bashing, or judgement, simply an answer to a question posed by tuna.

I believe in God,

Yep, me too. Just not in the traditional sense

the Father almighty,

I would agree with this in the loosest possible sense. I don't view god as a father, although "almighty" kinda works. In the church it tends to cause supplication and reverence, whereas I think of god more like the sum total of all the mass and energy in the universe and beyond. There are more than three dimensions and there are other realms beyond many people's comprehension. I know of them well and I still don't really understand them.

Creator of heaven and earth,

Yes, but again that implies that god went "poof" and created them. god IS heaven and earth, as are we, our chairs, the rings of Saturn, and a bacterium 6000 galaxies away.

and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,

I think there is a very good chance that jesus existed, was an incredibly enlightened soul, and was most likely sent here at the manifestation of our energy. Lord? Not so much for me. More like guide, teacher, Rabboni, spiritual helper, or example.

who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,

As are we all in the same way.

born of the Virgin Mary,

Mary was only a virgin if you don't count anal. That is a joke. A very bad one. But just as we each have the power to manipulate energy and mass with our minds (if we only used them), the likelihood that a virgin conceived a child is possible. I just don't believe it happened like the bible says.

suffered under Pontius Pilate,

Yeah, that guy was a buzzkill.

was crucified, died and was buried;

Nothing abnormal about believing this. Crucifixion was a common method of punishment, it usually caused death, and burial was what they did with the body.

on the third day he rose again from the dead;

I know that his soul (or divine-energy as I call it) would have emerged nearly instantly from his body and his blueprint would have become part of the next realm. Most people call this "heaven" despite the fact that Revelations specifically says that souls sleep until the rapture at which point the souls of the righteous will be re-awakened.

he ascended into heaven,

Or, as i said above, into the next realm... as do we all.

and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;

Again, I can see how this became a permutation of what actually happens. Our bodies and minds are not here for us, they're here for god... of whom we are a part. The analogy I sometimes use is a school of fish. Sometimes a few fish venture off to experience something and when they are done they return to the school... only in my analogy you have to assume there are no predators. Our bodies are fabricated pieces of reality in which a soul-energy ambulates through experience.

from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

Judgement (in the sense of good and bad, right and wrong) is only something that happens in the realm of the Relative, not in the realm of the Absolute, nor in the realm of the Abstract. Since our minds and bodies are in the Relative, we judge. After our bodies die and become re-membered with universal whole, there can be no judgement.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,

I believe in infinite spirits, all part of the whole which I call god.

the holy catholic Church,

Yes... and they never let you forget: Papal hierarchy with more wealth and jewels than the Kardashians, hundreds of wars waged in the name of Christ, witch hunts, gay bashing, colonialism, imperialism, supremacy, prima nocta.... I'm not passing judgment, simply pointing out that the catholic church sure has made itself known.

the communion of saints,

I currently know a few with whom I've communed.

the forgiveness of sins,

I would have to believe in sin first.

the resurrection of the body,

Never really gave this one much thought. Jesus' soul would have had no need for his corporeal body, he could have simply appeared to people in spirit form, but possibly he removed the body to lend credence to his message.

and life everlasting.

Absolutely. there is no way it can't be. We are part of god. god can't remove part of godself.

I think a lot of what's happened over the history of humanity is the difficulty of grasping just how unimportant we really are in the grand scheme of things. If we disappeared tomorrow, the universe really would not care one way or the other and would continue on as before. That's a sobering thought; we tend to think of ourselves as vastly important and indispensable.

Couple that with the mind boggling thought of BILLIONS of years of opportunity for random chance to end up with us (there's that self important thing again) along with wondering what happens to people's personalities after they die and it's not much wonder we developed the idea of a supreme being or beings watching over our immortal souls (the personality).

Then there was the problem of people acting in the cussed way they do. The carrot (heaven) and stick (hell) approach became pretty useful in trying to get people to treat each other better. Problem was, that got morphed into believing that deep seated human needs such as sex were called immoral. This put many religions at cross purposes with basic human drives.

So there's a Cliff Notes version of the main reasons I feel as I do. I'm sure that there will be those who will take this as an attack; it is not. Live like you wanna live, brother/sister; just allow me to do the same.

I like pie

Pancakes rule.

JoeyM wrote: I like pie

Berkeley your pie!

Curmudgeon wrote: Pancakes rule.

And your pancakes too!

Love and Peace!!

And noodles. Lots of noodles. With meat, tofu, and veggies.

I believe in reincarnation - in the sense of preservation of matter. My atoms have been around a long time and will continue to be reformulated long after I'm gone. As far as who got the ball rolling - I don't pretend to have a clue, but if there is a responsible entity, they are not a hands-on, micro-manager answering calls for somebody to make a touchdown or sink a basket.

and I like pie, cake and noodles and am an ordained minister in the church of the latter day dude.

In reply to curtis73:

Dude, I need to talk with you more. Like seriously. I'll buy the drinks, I just want to pick your brain. You're the first person in years with a belief system in the same cosmos as mine, and I want to know how you got there, and what you know. Seriously. Please email/PM me...

Javelin wrote: In reply to curtis73: Dude, I *need* to talk with you more. Like seriously. I'll buy the drinks, I just want to pick your brain. You're the first person in years with a belief system in the same cosmos as mine, and I want to know how you got there, and what you know. Seriously. Please email/PM me...

I'd say that actually makes at least three of us here that believe something similar. There are probably a lot more of us than we realize. It's not a view that lends itself to proselytizing or arguing.

One of the things I point to is the idea of conservation of mass and energy. Things aren't created or destroyed. They only change forms. You can't get something from nothing. Whatever there was at the beginning is the same thing there is now. If you choose to call that first/eternal whatever "God" or whatever, then everything that exists now can only have come from that stuff of God. We were not created. We will not be destroyed. We will only change forms.

Ultimately, I still stand by my earlier assertion that I don't trouble myself with whatever there is beyond this life too much, because what I believe won't change what is. So, I will go about trying to live the best, fullest life that I can be happy and proud to live.

I guess I'm in that number 3 grey area, too. I don't find it difficult to believe that there are forces beyond our understanding at work in the universe, but don't have much of an idea on what they are, and don't have a problem with the idea that it's all just fantasy either.

I've had some pretty good turns of luck after making donations at temples of Kanon when I've been over in Japan. Kanon (known as Guan'yin elsewhere) is a Buddhist figure that, among other things, presides over luck and fortune. Kinda makes you wonder, huh?

Shrugs

friedgreencorrado wrote: Love and Peace!! And noodles. Lots of noodles. With meat, tofu, and veggies.

You forgot

I decided at an early age (eleven or twelve) that I just couldn't believe in the church or religion. I couldn't even bring myself to say ''under God'' every morning when saying the Pledge of Allegiance. All I ask is that I can live life without having to justify my beliefs, and for noone to step on my toes because of what I believe. I will extend the same courtesy to others; for me to judge the religious choices of others would simply be hypocrisy.

The only thing worse than proletariat philosophers is women comedians. I'm out!

Curmudgeon wrote: You forgot

I was going to post up a pic of Kamiya Kaoru drinking beer in Ruroni Kenshin, but I can't find one. If the Curmudgeonling has a DVD stash, it's season 3, episode 4. (Yeah, I had to look it up)

seems I am a minority here as a Buddhist.. but that is ok.. I tend to be the Minority anywhere here when it comes to religion. My parents came to grips with it fairly easily, which surprised me as my mom is a staunch catholic conservative...

What I find funny.. is how people look at me once they find out. it seems split into thirds.. there is the "that makes sense" when they think about my world outlook and reconcile it with what they know of Buddhism..

there are those that seem Awed.. as if they had never met a Buddhist and expect me to start acting all serene and wise..

And then there are those that try to convert me

oldtin wrote: and I like pie, cake and noodles and am an ordained minister in the church of the latter day dude.

do you serve pie at communion? If so, I'm DEFINITELY coming to your services