Lighten up, Francis (koran burning content.)

Duke wrote: I find it hard to believe that there are *not* forums dedicated to generic (or even flavored) spiritualism/theism.

I am sure you are right. I didn't say they didn't exist, I said I was unaware of them...

...oh, and that I would find then boring.

"Theism" is way too broad a "viewpoint". I've never met anyone who would relate to that term personally, and it would incorporate such enormously diverse and opposing viewpoints that it is essentially the same thing as not having any viewpoint. Even "Christian" is too broad a territory to build a website around. You're just not going to find too many sites that would satisfactorily meet the needs of Roman Catholics, Quakers, Presbyterians, Holiness, and Unitarian Universalist Christians at the same time, absolutely impossible if you then also throw in Islam, Judaism, and Buddhism. And that's just some of the monotheistic religions- let's not even get into the polytheistic religions.

Maybe that's my point. Aren't there enough flavors of atheists to make building a community around one common "ideology" nearly impossible? Or is an opposition to the potential for the existence of a divine being (whatever divine being) in-and-of itself sufficient to unify a group of people to consider themselves of like-mind?

In reply to SVreX:

C.S. Lewis did it fairly well for Christians in his books. I am not sure you could make an Interwebby type group around that though.

In reply to Otto_Maddox:

While I am personally a fan of C.S.Lewis, you'd have a pretty tough time selling the average Roman Catholic or Quaker on his stuff...

poopshovel wrote: While we're waaaaay off topic and everyone is in super-preachy mode: While I understand the enmity for christians, organized religion as a whole, etc., etc., whether it be based on bad experiences with religious types, a feeling or sense or moment of "enlightenment" where you decided that a deity was no more or less real than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny, do some of you self-proclaimed athiests, agnostics, etc. realize that you come off JUST as preachy, self-righteous, holier than thou, and very often, even more condescending than those who believe in a god? I get it. I get the sense of joy one can get in saying "AH-HA! Hypocrite!", but if it's just to make yourself feel more righteous and enlightened than the next guy, aren't you just as bad as those simple-minded, self-righteous, deity-worshippin' fools you take such issue with?

You are exactly right. That's why I make it a point to not get all preachy about my beliefs (or lack therof, as some will put it).

Becoming an atheist was not an easy decision for me. I grew up in a staunchly Southern Baptist family (at least on my mother's side) and I think I know a little bit of what gays must feel like when they are 'in the closet': if I were to reveal my atheism to that side of the fambly, well, the repercussions would not die down for years. My dad was religious but not a member of any church, he accepted it but not well and he never said anything to my mom's side of the family.

On my mom's side: they are not bad people by any means. Every so often a few family members on that side will say something in conversation that makes me realize they think non believers are not to be trusted and should be shunned (which is the main reason I keep my trap shut). There's also a couple of Ku Klux Klanners on that side (but they are very circumspect).That made me realize at a very young age that many people equate religion with morality when it may not necessarily be so. For that matter, many atheists equate atheism with morality, when in reality religion (or lack therof) has absolutely nothing to do with morality. They are two completely separate things.

It also taught me that I need to give everybody I meet the benefit of the doubt- until they screw me. At that point, they have proven themselves unworthy of being trusted regardless of age, sex, creed, religion, race, you name it. (In practice, probably 99% of all people I have met have proven themselves to be trustworthy.) So if I get preachy at someone, it's because they have proven themself (as an individual) to be untrustworthy, not because they are a member of whatever group or profess to believe in whatever deity.

SVreX wrote:

friedgreencorrado wrote: Thanks for the understanding. I assure you, the apology I offer is honestly offered!

Apology accepted. I figure you are probably easier to forgive than I am.

Eh, I'm bipolar. I've spent half my life apologizing for the wierd E36 M3 I've done when I'm "manic". "Practice makes perfect", right?

SVreX wrote: Hey, I've got a question... What the heck is an "atheist forum"?

Well, it's kind of like a car forum, except that we talk about atheism stuff instead of cars.

SVreX wrote: Is that where a bunch of people get together to discuss stuff they don't believe exists with other people who also don't believe it exists? What the heck is up with that? Do they get into pretty decent arguments with each other while agreeing to not believe something exists? They must have a purpose other than being an "atheist forum".

Well, you have to recall the social situation. You're correct, sir..we're not really talking about whether or not gods exist. That's kind of a "done deal" for us. We're just talking about how to protect our children from the accidental indoctrination into theism some societies contain (oh, you should have heard the conversation about my daughter's piano teacher!), whether or not to actually mention in public that we actually are atheists (some of the stories from the youngsters in the US sound like that stuff my gay friends have told me about being abandoned by family/friends..).

SVreX wrote: I am not aware of any similar thing for theists (or Christians, for that matter). I can't even envision how it would work. I am aware of sites that exist for other purposes which are FREQUENTED by Christians (for example, home schooling sites get a lot of conservative protestants, but there are also home schoolers who are liberal, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, or atheist who may participate). But I am not aware of any sites that exist for the purpose of being "theist" (or Christian).

Well, it's not exactly like your neighbors would deface your property (I've had four "Darwin Fish" badges stripped off of my car, with varying levels of damage to the paint done by the individual doing the vandalism) or try to steal away your parenting duties for being a Christian, is it? Unfortunately, the simple act of discarding that belief makes a lot of "My Fellow Americans" very angry. Jeez, all I wanna do is work hard enough to support my family, keep my kid away from something I consider harmful, and pay my taxes so that the Interstate doesn't have any potholes.

SVreX wrote: If I was aware of such a site, I'd make sure to not go there. Sounds pretty boring.

Oh, yeah. Most of the ones I've seen are so crazy that a real Christian would disown them on sight. Places like "Rapture Ready", and "Answers In Geneis" etc. Full-league crazy "fundamentalist" garbage.

SVreX wrote: I much prefer to discuss my worldviews with people who can bring me differing perspectives. It either helps me grow, or allows me to help others grow. Usually a bit of both.

I agree, but with a caveat..I no longer care enough about the possible existence of gods as important enough to influence my worldview.

SVreX wrote: Do sites exist for the purpose of being atheist? Do they ever win any debates? Do they ever loose any debates? Do they ever convince someone else of their opinions, or do they really get off on navel gazing? Are there really "atheist forums", or do they actually exist for other purposes? I'm serious- I'm not making fun. I'm honestly curious.

Dude, think of it like this...if the internet existed in 1955, black guys would have discussed how to avoid lynchings, how to dissmiss the lie that they all wanted to lie with white women, and whether or not they should send their kids to integrated schools. It doesn't matter that most white folks back then didn't express their disagreement so violently..it only takes one to harm you or your loved ones.

Of course, the violence directed towards black people back then was much more strong than that directed towards atheists today. That's actually one of the things we discuss on the atheist forums. Since there's no visual clue that we're different, is it our own fault when we're discriminated against? It's a question about morality, really..should we speak up? Should we lie about our feelings, and "try to pass" for theists?

FGC, speaking strictly for myself: since I live in the buckle of the Bible Belt I learned pretty early on that I will get along better if I just don't bring it up. Some might consider that cowardice, but when you have a family to support it becomes pretty clear that compromises must be made. Maybe it's different in other parts of the country.

I used to work for a small family owned company, the very religious owners got divorced and the wife took over the company. The husband commited adultery, there's a lot of irony there which could warrant its own thread. Anyway, the wife realized that I didn't talk about church etc on Monday mornings and asked me where I went to church, thus putting me on the spot. I tried to answer her questions as honestly as possible without coming across as an arrogant ass, but she took offense anyway. I never directly came out and said I was an atheist. But from that day on, I was a marked man. She let me go over something really trumped up, I probably could have hired an attorney and gotten something out of all that but it came out about 6 weeks later that the husband had run up some tremendous bills related to his girlfriend which wound up shutting the company down. At that point, I figured she had enough problems and just went on with my life.

But the lesson has always stayed with me: STFU if I want to keep my job. (whacks hornet's nest with big stick) Since I am white and male, I have no real legal protections but I still have bills to pay.

EDIT: A guardian ad litem is involved in my divorce. One of the first questions he asked me was where we went to church. Man, that was an uncomfortable moment. I could just see it being trumpeted at my divorce hearing as evidence of my parental unsuitability. So far, it hasn't come up and I have been granted custody. Whew.

ok.. Back on topic.

Dude went to NYC. Nothing happened. Next steps for wacko man?

It's old news. The ratings blip is over and now no one cares.

In reply to ignorant:

Local paper says he's going to Tampa to seek out a bigger congregation.

Jensenman wrote: FGC, speaking strictly for myself: since I live in the buckle of the Bible Belt I learned pretty early on that I will get along better if I just don't bring it up. Some might consider that cowardice,

I don't. My parents were SouBap as well. Half of the reason I moved to Atlanta was because I was tired of lying to people (but didn't want to leave the South) and I figured "the ay-tee-elle" was big enough to find a like-minded community. Hell, that's where all the GLBT folks from my high school went..

Jensenman wrote: but when you have a family to support it becomes pretty clear that compromises must be made. Maybe it's different in other parts of the country.

My sister & bro-in-law still shout "Move to Seattle!" (their adopted home) every time the subject comes up.

Jensenman wrote: I used to work for a small family owned company, the very religious owners got divorced and the wife took over the company. The husband commited adultery, there's a lot of irony there which could warrant its own thread. Anyway, the wife realized that I didn't talk about church etc on Monday mornings and asked me where I went to church, thus putting me on the spot. compromises must be made. Maybe it's different in other parts of the country.

ROFL! With ya, not at ya. Oh, I hate that one..even now that I'm "out of the closet" most of the time, I still haven't found a way to fend that one off! At the moment, I just say, "I haven't found one that suits me yet". I recall my parents changing churches in a heartbeat if a single sermon didn't agree with their own personal interpretation of Christianity (which, I have to admit..was a lot more tolerant than other SouBaps..). They seem to go for it better than my old "I'm not religious", but it only seems to give me about a month or two of peace & quiet before they start hinting that I should consider the place they go.

Jensenman wrote: I tried to answer her questions as honestly as possible without coming across as an arrogant ass, but she took offense anyway. I never directly came out and said I was an atheist. But from that day on, I was a marked man. She let me go over something really trumped up, I probably could have hired an attorney and gotten something out of all that but it came out about 6 weeks later that the husband had run up some tremendous bills related to his girlfriend which wound up shutting the company down. At that point, I figured she had enough problems and just went on with my life. But the lesson has always stayed with me: STFU if I want to keep my job. (whacks hornet's nest with big stick) Since I am white and male, I have no real legal protections but I still have bills to pay. EDIT: A guardian ad litem is involved in my divorce. One of the first questions he asked me was where we went to church. Man, that was an uncomfortable moment. I could just see it being trumpeted at my divorce hearing as evidence of my parental unsuitability. So far, it hasn't come up and I have been granted custody. Whew.

Close one there, J-man. I was lucky. No one ever asked. But my ex isn't a bad person, and my lawyer told me I didn't have a hope in hell for custody in the first place. All I wanted was some unorthodox visitation (I work in TV, and don't even have the same days off every week..when her lawyer offered me holidays, I said, "okay, so where do I find day care on Christmas? I gotta work."). Even the judge didn't bat an eye when I asked for the "secular alternative" swearing in at court.

Okay, I'll shut up about it now..but I do want to tell SVreX that this kind of stuff is what people talk about on atheist forums.

Oh, and back on topic..Phelps says if Jones won't burn a Qu'ran, he will. Commentary from the SF Gate:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/ybenjamin/detail?entry_id=72020

MrJoshua wrote: In reply to ignorant: Local paper says he's going to Tampa to seek out a bigger congregation.

52 people?

Wally wrote:

MrJoshua wrote: In reply to ignorant: Local paper says he's going to Tampa to seek out a bigger congregation.

52 people?

zing

HiTempguy wrote:

Otto_Maddox wrote: Can we all at least agree that Christian rock is horrible?

Disagree, listen to some of Thousand Foot Krutch's stuff. Of course, they barely fit the definition (more rock than Christian) but thats what they fall under. And I'm not even Christian!

MXPX was a christian band off and on and they weren't bad..

but

bart simpson said: All the best bands are affiliated with Satan

and

same barber or separated at birth?

They both have more mustache than brain

Back on topic also: seems there was an isolated incident at an Islamic school in Australia where a guy ripped pages from a Bible, pretended to smoke some of them and urinated on others. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/expelled-muslim-boys-father-blames-school/story-e6frg6nf-1111112653191

There was also this:

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/brisbane-atheist-burns-koran-and-bible-20100913-157ao.html

At least he tried to piss off both sides.

Jensenman wrote: Back on topic also: seems there was an isolated incident at an Islamic school in Australia where a guy ripped pages from a Bible, pretended to smoke some of them and urinated on others. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/expelled-muslim-boys-father-blames-school/story-e6frg6nf-1111112653191 There was also this: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/brisbane-atheist-burns-koran-and-bible-20100913-157ao.html At least he tried to piss off both sides.

I've actually been saying (elsewhere) since it happened that Mr. Stewart may have the luxury of not having friends or loved ones serving with the military in the mideast. It's tough. As an American, I support the right of anybody to speak freely (I'll admit that I am completely ignorant about how Australian law applies to his behavior..) OTOH, this crap is gonna make the Muzzie Morons up in the Afghan mountains absolutely berserk. I'm really having a problem reconciling my desire with letting anybody say what they want with my desire that my friends' kids come back in something other than a sealed box..

Jensenman wrote: Back on topic also: seems there was an isolated incident at an Islamic school in Australia where a guy ripped pages from a Bible, pretended to smoke some of them and urinated on others. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/expelled-muslim-boys-father-blames-school/story-e6frg6nf-1111112653191 There was also this: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/brisbane-atheist-burns-koran-and-bible-20100913-157ao.html At least he tried to piss off both sides.

Along the same lines a guy once told me that the bible made very good rolling paper and he swore that is why they put the blank pages in the bible. Silly catholic school kids.