Michigan State Police not riding Harleys???

Yeah, and the Harley hate is old. Some people like a radial engine on their plane, some people like an F100.. christ. Harley riders aren't all posers just as other riders don't all wish they were on Harleys. I had an 04 sportster which was perfectly reliable for the 14k and 6 years I owned it. Great bike. I could cruise at 80 all day long. No oil burn or leak and 55mpg. Another funny observation: I've seen just as many douches with straight pipes on import bikes in the last five years as I have with Harleys. It isn't because of the brand they ride, it is because of the douche they are.

Finally, Harley's look cool. I know, I know. That's a E36 M3ty way to ascribe quality to a bike. Thing is, half the things I pick to surround myself have how they look as a pretty big (much bigger than I admit to myself) part of the equation. Look at your guitar: does it look stupid to you? Probably not.

Regardless, we like what we like. I do want my PD to pick the best bike for the job. It would be cool if it was domestic, but it ain't right now. It's a shame in many ways, and I bet if HD put their collective minds to it, they could create it. They choose not to. Fair enough..

Curmudgeon wrote:

ST_ZX2 wrote: Also, Pres--The Revolution V-Rod engine is a 60* motor. It is still very much state-of-the-art. Please get the facts straight.

The V-Rod is the last vestige of Harley's 1990's era road race program. The engine came from the VTR1000. http://www.superbikeplanet.com/vr1000_obit.htm One magazine of the time commented how the H-D race team had the nicest transporter, everything they had was color matched orange and black, lots of pretty girls dressed in H-D gear but had time etc showings on a par with some of the fast privateers. Harley threw money at top riders but still coudn't get a good showing, they had a total of one pole and one win. They pulled the plug finally; some rumors going around at the time were that they coudn't find a top level rider because the bike was unrideable and there was no cooperation from management to make the thing a winner. EDIT: The race bike was the VR1000, not the VTR.

Yeah, the VTR1000 enjoyed a ton of racing success.

Teh E36 M3 wrote: I've seen just as many douches with straight pipes on import bikes in the last five years as I have with Harleys. It isn't because of the brand they ride, it is because of the douche they are.

The problem there, and I am not excusing it, most sport bikes are not obnoxious until way up in their powerband.. the harley is obnoxious just idling without some sort of muffler.

I do admit.. I really wish the police would crack down on ALL the E36 M3 heads who run open pipes. The old saying that "loud pipes save lives" is just BS as you never hear them until they have already passed you

Technologically speaking, how are HDs archaic?

Is it fuel delivery? Every Harley-Davidson since 2007 is fuel injected. Every Japanese manufacturer still produces bikes with carbs. All BMWs are injected. I couldn't find an Italian bike with a carb, either.

Is it engine cooling? Harley-Davidson has been selling water* cooled bikes for ten years (only slightly less time than Porsche has been selling water cooled 911s). Kawasaki is the only Japanese manufacturer that doesn't sell an air cooled street bike. The rest have air cooled bikes in their line-up. Some MotoGuzzis and Ducatis are air cooled, as well. Even boxer BMWs are still waterless.

*It's unfair to say "liquid" cooled, as oil is indeed a liquid, and provides cooling, albeit limited, abilities.

How about brakes? All Big Twin Harley-Davidsons are available with ABS. That leaves the low price-point Sportster line-up with out ABS, but they've got disc brakes on both wheels, unlike the Suzuki C50.

yamaha wrote: Precisely my point, you can get a C50 Suzuki which is nicer than a sportster, for about 6k.....it's just as quick, more reliable, more engineering into it, etc.

It weighs more than a Sportster and has a DRUM rear brake. Of the Japanese manufacturers, only a handful are available with ABS. I couldn't find a Yamaha Star that has ABS, BTW

Still using pushrods? Big deal. There are numerous posts on this forum about someone getting Xbrand/model car, and eventually, someone says, "Put an LSx in it." In case you forgot, LS engines have pushrods. Further, the overhead cam design is just as old, if not older, than the pushrod/overhead valve design.

Are you talking about the metal used to make the engine? It's aluminum case/jugs with steel/iron internals, much like damn near every other engine on the street.

Now, everyone that poo-poos HD for being old-tech should STFU about automatic transmissions and demanding that a car have three pedals. THAT'S ancient technology.

All I know is if I hadn't made a vow to myself to not accumulate any more debt I would have walked out of the local HD dealer Friday the proud owner of a '48 sportster. They came off sticker by $1500, new models are due in a month.

ST_ZX2 wrote:

dyintorace wrote: I'm not sure how many motorcycles H-D has produced over the years, but my gut tells me that BMW USA is more important to our GDP than H-D.

Harley builds about 200K bikes/year. Engines are built in Milwaukee, and final assembly is in York, PA or Kansas City, depending on model. Three large factories, and a fourth in Tomahawk, WI that does paint/fiberglass, along with standalone R&D and administrative offices in Milwaukee. In addition to that, there are dozens if not hundreds of businesses in existence (just) to service the H-D aftermarket...wheels, pipes, chrome, leather etc. I am willing to bet there are far more H-D dealers than there are BMW dealers too. My gut tells me that your gut might be in need of recalibration.

While H-D may contribute a lot, my point was that BMW does too. Per one report I read, BMW contributes $4 billion annually to the South Carolina and US economies. Folks get upset that people aren't buying American, thereby supposedly sending 100% of the money overseas, but many foreign companies contribute a lot domestically. Apologies if I was off on my economic analysis.

Harley's ancient technology to me is:

1) the 45 degree vee that makes anything even approaching dynamic balance impossible and leads to

2) a seriously screwed up bore/stroke ratio and connecting rod to stroke ratio. (It's about as bad a layout as an MGB on the rod/stroke ratio.) Due to the 45 degree layout, it's not fixable. It's an inherent drawback of the engine's architecture.

3) the rear cylinder runs much hotter than the front for obvious reasons, this leads to some clearance compromises.

4) the 'knife and fork' connecting rod layout.

5) primary chain drive. The last import bike to use that was, IIRC, BSA/Triumph.

6) the excessively long engine/transmission unit dictated by the primary drive setup. That royally fubars the wheelbase, leading to a less than good handling motorcycle.

Harley can claim bleeding edge technology with FI etc but all they are doing is putting lipstick on a pig. I guess part of this is embarrasment at the rest of the motorcycle world saying 'is this really the best engineering that the greatest nation on earth can come up with?'.

Are we capable of bleeding edge tech? Hell, yeah. The Cannondale is a perfect example of what we are capable of; that bike succumbed to ill conceived marketing strategy more than anything. No one could ever say it wasn't right there with (or even better than) the best the planet could offer at the time. But with their demise now the best we can offer is overweight ill handling vibrating jackhammers based on a 1903 design that still had bicycle pedals and that won't even idle right. Oh, well.

Be that as it may, H-D is the best selling heavy-weight motorcycle brand in the world. It is likely the most popular and most loved brand of anything. Example: people don't tattoo Honda, Yamaha or even BMW on their bodies with much regularity...do they?

In reply to ST_ZX2:

I've seen a few Suzuki tats.

I've seen people tattoo "mom" on their bodies as well but that doesn't make me want to ride their mom.

DrBoost wrote: A State Police analysis tried to be kind to the Harleys, calling them a "capable vehicle for parade and ceremonial use."

They do look better than anything else in a parade or motorcade.

pinchvalve wrote: I like supporting the local economy as much as a the next guy, but a better product has to win out for the police. Would you put officers out there with guns that don't shoot as far and jam more often, but are made close by?

You don't work for the gov't do you? All kinds of things are purchased for any reason except for how well they work.

nicksta43 wrote: In reply to ST_ZX2: I've seen a few Suzuki tats.

I've seen Ducati, Triumph, Vespa, Moto Guzzi tats, but all of them combined aren't near as many of the HD tats I've seen

Type Q wrote: When did the Michigan State Police get motorcycles? In the all the years I lived there, I never saw one. Seems like a big expenditure for a vehicle you can patrol with maybe five months per year.

i got pulled over by a toolbag on one last time i was up there pulling a trailer.

ST_ZX2 wrote: people don't tattoo Honda, Yamaha or even BMW on their bodies with much regularity...do they?

That is part of the draw for me.

....wait, there are police bikes besides Kawasakis?

Preface: Not currently nor ever have been a bike enthusiast.

The Michigan State Police has developed one of the greatest LEO vehicle testing programs in the country. If you have access to the information it is fascinating. If you get to see a MIS test you will see cars, trucks and bikes tested at 10/10ths and will come away with profound respect for the drivers... even more once you realize most are "just MSP officers".

The MoFaux above knows what he speaks of!
http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7-123-__1564__1564-16274--,00.html

RealMiniDriver wrote:

nicksta43 wrote: In reply to ST_ZX2: I've seen a few Suzuki tats.

I've seen Ducati, Triumph, Vespa, Moto Guzzi tats, but all of them combined aren't near as many of the HD tats I've seen

And most of the H-D tats(and logo'ed clothing) I have come across is on people with no riding experience.

I found it interesting that the testing also included the Victory Vision:

And, Victory Commander:

Teh E36 M3 wrote: Finally, Harley's look cool. I know, I know. That's a E36 M3ty way to ascribe quality to a bike.

I disagree. That is part of the reason I don't like Harley. I think they look stupid (exception Sportster). There is way to much chrome. Also I hate the sound of Harleys. It is like nails on a chalk board to me. I have no problem with them using old technology or anything. Hell I like Morgans but the sound just kills me.

ST_ZX2 wrote: Be that as it may, H-D is the best selling heavy-weight motorcycle brand in the world. It is likely the most popular and most loved brand of anything. Example: people don't tattoo Honda, Yamaha or even BMW on their bodies with much regularity...do they?

Honda would like to have a word with you.

On the harley hate topic... When you see a sport bike with straight pipes being a douche, it's usually an 18 year old kid. When it's a harley it's a 50 year old man who should have grown up 30 years ago.

The important thing is you've correctly identified them both as douches.

Curmudgeon wrote: Harley's ancient technology to me is: 1) the 45 degree vee that makes anything even approaching dynamic balance impossible and leads to

Try a Softail. They're so smooth, it's eerie. How would a BMW boxer run without the balancer shaft? Also:

Wikipedia said: Like its contemporaries in its class the XS 650 has a 360° crank angle. This provides an even firing interval between the two cylinders, but also generates some vibration caused by the two pistons rising and falling together. This vibration is particularly noticeable at idle.

You have an Ex Ess Six Fiddy, no?

2) a seriously screwed up bore/stroke ratio and connecting rod to stroke ratio. (It's about as bad a layout as an MGB on the rod/stroke ratio.) Due to the 45 degree layout, it's not fixable. It's an inherent drawback of the engine's architecture.

You got me there. I'm not an engineer. But, apparently, it still works and they sell a lot of them.

3) the rear cylinder runs much hotter than the front for obvious reasons, this leads to some clearance compromises.

What clearance problems?

4) the 'knife and fork' connecting rod layout.

It's not the only engine with split rods still being produced. The motor swap fan favorite LS uses split rods/shared crankpins, also.

5) primary chain drive. The last import bike to use that was, IIRC, BSA/Triumph. 6) the excessively long engine/transmission unit dictated by the primary drive setup. That royally fubars the wheelbase, leading to a less than good handling motorcycle.

Your logic is flawed. The Honda Goldwing and BMW's top dog K1600 wheelbases are longer than a Harley Touring bike. But yeah, the R1200 they're using in this article has a shorter wb.

6) the excessively long engine/transmission unit dictated by the primary drive setup. That royally fubars the wheelbase, leading to a less than good handling motorcycle.

I'm pretty sure that My Buell XB12STT, powered by H-D, has one of the shortest wheelbases around. It is also regarded as one of the best handling bikes. Period. I am guessing that kind of nullifies the #6 argument.