Do we have a troll that needs to third gear vtech back under his bridge?
Do we have a troll that needs to third gear vtech back under his bridge?
alfadriver wrote:neily wrote:So you missed the math part I pointed out. given the same torque, 160hp at 6000rpm is just like 240hp at 9000rpm. The Honda engine can spin and continue to delier air at 9000rpm, which is where the power is coming from. if you can figure out a way to spin a BP engine to 9000rpm, maintain the air per stroke, it, too, will make 240hp. Not sure what it would take to do that, though.alfadriver wrote:the f20 is making 240 horse power 80 more ponies then the mza witch is 160 horse power I find it hard that vtec can achieve that much horse powerneily wrote: In reply to alfadriver: So do you think vtec is the only reason why f20 as more horse power compared to the mzr 2.0 liter....Only? No, but it's a big contributor. It is the main reason the engine is spins to 9000 rpm- there's a cam profile that works at that high speed. And it's combined with a cam profile that works down to 700rpm. That's huge- if an engine can maintain torque from 6000 rpm to 9000 rpm, that's an increase of 50% HP, so a 160hp engine at 6000rpm would be making 240 at 9000 rpm. Then there's the ports that flow the air, the valvetrain that can spin that fast, the pistons/rods/crank/ block- all capable of spinning that fast, etc. The #1 thing for the engine is the speed capabilty and it's abilty to maintain aiflow/stroke as it speeds up.
you are also miss the point rpm does not result in horse power... what i was asking is that how does the f20 make 80 more =horse power= then mza as they are both 2.0 liter engines
RPM totally makes horsepower. It's right there in the equation that defines horsepower.
Neily, do you know who's answering your questions? You've got a powertrain engineer for an OE trying to use small words for you. He's forgotten more about how engines work than you know.
Keith Tanner wrote: RPM totally makes horsepower. It's right there in the equation that defines horsepower.
Horsepower = (Torque x RPM) ÷ 5252
the faster you can spin your engine, the easier it is to make big power.
Keith Tanner wrote: Neily, what are you really asking? You're going somewhere with this. Because you're not actually reading the answers. I understand that Honda has a patent on the actual VTEC mechanism. I was just curious why, since it works so well, we hadn't seen someone else do a similar setup. All the other ones seem so complex - Rube Goldberg seems to come to mind. They're certainly more flexible, and I really hope to own a car that runs on gasoline and doesn't have a throttle plate someday, but that complexity is expensive. Why hasn't Valvetronic found its way to the high performance BMW engines, do you suppose?
look man what iam trying to say is that the f20 engine makes 80 more horse power then mza which both are the same 2.0 liter displacement ... trying to figure out the big gap in horse power between the two cars engine ... I just find it hard to belive that the vtec is the only contribute to the horse power
neily wrote: you are also miss the point rpm does not result in horse power...
The next time you drive your car use all the throttle you want but shift so that you never let the RPMs go above 1,500 -- then come back and let us know if you still believe that.
Guys, let's all stop feeding the troll.
switching gears.
Why do engines still have cams? I know... reliability and cost.
we need to solve this sucker.
neily wrote:Keith Tanner wrote: Neily, what are you really asking? You're going somewhere with this. Because you're not actually reading the answers. I understand that Honda has a patent on the actual VTEC mechanism. I was just curious why, since it works so well, we hadn't seen someone else do a similar setup. All the other ones seem so complex - Rube Goldberg seems to come to mind. They're certainly more flexible, and I really hope to own a car that runs on gasoline and doesn't have a throttle plate someday, but that complexity is expensive. Why hasn't Valvetronic found its way to the high performance BMW engines, do you suppose?look man what iam trying to say is that the f20 engine makes 80 more horse power then mza which both are the same 2.0 liter displacement ... trying to figure out the big gap in horse power between the two cars engine ... I just find it hard to belive that the vtec is the only contribute to the horse power
You don't have to believe it, because as said MULTIPLE times in this thread now, it's not the only contributor. You've been told exactly why it makes more power. What more are you looking for?
z31maniac wrote: Guys, let's all stop feeding the troll.
Also, this.
Swank Force One wrote: 112,642 worldwide throughout entire production run. This includes all F20C and F22C cars.
That's more than I thought, too.
But, relative to the mass produced MZR/Duratec, well...
And the entire cost difference between the S2000 and the Miata is the engine- they are both uni-body steel cars, both with good, but not massively different suspension, both stiff w/o a top... Car wise, they are very close.
That engine.
(and looking at it from the other direction, one does get the idea how the Miata can even be a production car. Mass produced engine in a pretty easy to make chassis. I'm very, very thankful for that)
neily wrote: you are also miss the point rpm does not result in horse power... what i was asking is that how does the f20 make 80 more =horse power= then mza as they are both 2.0 liter engines
Ok... it's just physics, that's all. 
Fueled by Caffeine wrote: switching gears. Why do engines still have cams? I know... reliability and cost. we need to solve this sucker.
I remember having a conversation about the issues of electric valve actuation with someone, and they pointed out that if someone invented cams as they are, we would think they are nuts, too.
But, I predict that they will be around for a very, very long time. The cost-benefit of direct actuating valves is a tough nut to crack. And you can also look at that as seeing that the camshaft idea is amazingly good at what it does.
I don't think cams will be around for even another decade. Koenigsegg has a test mule with an electric valvetrain running around right now, and as soon as they're ready for production every manufacturer is going to want to jump on board for an easy 20%+ energy savings. With gas prices going higher and higher, it won't be a big deal if it costs more either.
The bigger question is if electric valvetrains will become mainstream before ICEs become obsolete for everyday cars.
I can't believe distributors hung on as long as they did, either. Sometimes, simple is the way to go.
In reply to neily:
So if you put some rowdy cams in that mze, tuned it for said cams, and spun it another 2k rpm, would you still be shocked that it made more power than a stock mze?
If that doesn't work, take a stock mze and drag race a stock s2000, then you'll have a visual of what 80 extra hp looks like.
Spoolpigeon wrote: In reply to neily: So if you put some rowdy cams in that mze, tuned it for said cams, and spun it another 2k rpm, would you still be shocked that it made more power than a stock mze? If that doesn't work, take a stock mze and drag race a stock s2000, then you'll have a visual of what 80 extra hp looks like.
You know as well as anyone else in this thread that teh vtakz are teh magix.
I have seen NA F20's push out over 345HP at 9500rpm. Race gas only 14.5:1 cr. and lumpy high lift cams..
THe ports on the F20 are some of the best flowing ports ever. no kidding, 360cfm is pretty easy to achieve with them..
M_RED_ wrote: I have seen NA F20's push out over 345HP at 9500rpm. Race gas only 14.5:1 cr. and lumpy high lift cams.. THe ports on the F20 are some of the best flowing ports ever. no kidding, 360cfm is pretty easy to achieve with them..
I'm going to need to see video of that. 
In reply to M_RED_: Mecha-Doc.com as mx5 na BP engine doing 470psi in Hyper Rev but there web site say 600psi ... soooo crazy now only if they have a video of the beast in action!!
Neily, is English your first language?
Swank Force One wrote: Neily, is English your first language?
Nope i also hate english class
neily wrote:Swank Force One wrote: Neily, is English your first language?Nope i also hate english class
Ah.... this might explain it.
Because rotary, that is all
GameboyRMH wrote: I don't think cams will be around for even another decade. Koenigsegg has a test mule with an electric valvetrain running around right now, and as soon as they're ready for production every manufacturer is going to want to jump on board for an easy 20%+ energy savings. With gas prices going higher and higher, it won't be a big deal if it costs more either. The bigger question is if electric valvetrains will become mainstream before ICEs become obsolete for everyday cars.
It's still a cost-benefit study. It's great that it's running around, but the real world benefits will be ineresting to see.
One of the big claims is no pumping losses, but that's totally untrue- the ONLY way to throttle a gas engine is to valve the air flow. So for a given displacement engine, you have to deliver a partial charge. And that will result in pumping losses.
Will it be worth it? Dunno.
Comparing this to the ignition change- kinda, but more apples-oranges- both are fruit, but the distributor still uses a coil. But instead of one coil that we control with a distributor, we have NUM_CYL number of coils that are turned on/off with a computer. Not exaclty the same as opening and closing valves that are supposed to seal combustion.
Unless a quantum change happens, ICE's are going to be around for a looooooong time. And at this point, I don't even know what that change will look like- could have already happened, as far as I know.
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