My son the target. Parenting questions.

My middle school age son got into another fight today. Again he's not the aggressor, but he is helping to create the situations where the other guy sees hitting him as a solution. I'm running out of ideas with him.
He reads people poorly, and really always has. Not in an autistic way, but in an enthusiastic friendly way. He simply can't figure out that other people aren't as friendly and nice as he is and wants them to be. At home we've developed systems of being very overt with him, but that doesn't translate to school. His teachers say that he's just annoying for far longer than people can stand. They're eager for the year to end. One of them is looking for another job.
One on one he's a spectacular person. He's able to make friends with any group of strangers instantly. He could sell a refrigerator to an Eskimo. His personality has a place in this world, but middle school isn't it.
I'm not even sure what I'm asking, but if anyone has insight, let it fly.

I have no help, but he sounds exactly like a fellow student friend mine from elementary school over 50 years ago. I have found him on the book of faces and he seems to have survived.

Are you willing to use a behavioral therapist? I'm not sure if that's the proper term but basically someone who will convince him he needs to learn social cues and practice social behavior with him.

Middle School sucks.

Not sure I can offer anything, but let me think about it.

Following with interest. This sounds like my daughter.

Obviously I’ve only got a few paragraphs to work with but do you think he may be displaying some level of passive aggressive behavior?

In other words, could at least some of this be his way of exerting control / dominance over situations?

My eldest had some of this and my youngest has a double dose.

This might be a tough love situation. He learns a little every time he gets in a fight. With my kids, I'd tell them why they are getting pounded. I'd point out when they were being annoying at home. Then I let them get their buts kicked a few more times. The eldest figured it out, the youngest is working on it.

Unfortunately it's kind of like them finding out there is no Santa. Finding out the world isn't full of cheerful, loving people sucks, but it's a lesson they have to learn.

First question...are the fights with the same kid, same clique of kids, or with random kids?

Teach him to fight…

"Again he's not the aggressor, but he is helping to create the situations where the other guy sees hitting him as a solution."

Harder to find situations where the best solution is to get your ass kicked.

Uh, I married him. Not sure this is the good news or the bad news. And to repeat what others have said, middle school sucks. Anyone who is good at it has a strong predictor of being a shiny happy person in grown-up life.

Margie

Sounds like me, sorta. I still have to remind myself to shut up sometimes. I don't get hit very often but I could see it happen if I don't keep things in check.

Joey

can't help … we didn't have anything resembling middle school

1 - 3 in one building, 4 - 8 in the other building (same grounds)

9 - 12 three miles away with another school district added to it

Let it run its natural course i.e. let his wolf pack teach him acceptable social behavior. A former boss is what happens when an awkward teen isn't corrected and becomes an adult. He says very inappropriate things in the workplace, his "jokes" are unfunny and often hurtful, his ideas are foolish, but he is a low-level supervisor in government and his underlings are powerless. He's a textbook sociopath. All because he never got his teeth kicked in when he was growing up. He thinks everyone is his friend, but no one likes him and he's oblivious.

I'm not saying this applies to all awkward pre-teens, but basic peer review will correct most behavior within a clique. To be clear I'm not talking about bullying; though my former boss became an adult bully.

That said, I grew up with annoying kids and some of them are now annoying adults, but social rules being what they are, they no longer get pummeled daily and seem generally happy though also generally avoided by others. He'll survive.

Sorry your kid is going through that

Does he have friends at school?

Have you read anything on Asperger's syndrome. I'm no expert but what you describe fits some of what I do understand about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

from what little you gave us:

he needs a hobby. wrestling, judo, baseball, something. hes 'annoying' cause he wants to share and communicate but doesn't have anything worth sharing. he needs a competitive team or singular sport, no 'everyone gets a trophy' BS. he needs to lose, work harder, win maybe, or lose again. character building has a way of building almost every other social aspect, but it takes time.

and remember, not everyone will fit in all the time, some people still won't like him. you will both have to accept that.

also, a different setting may be in order as well. i have a VERY low opinion of the public school system for thousands of reasons, and a total inability of staff to deal with social issues is in the top 5. looking for a new job? really? wusses...

-J0N

Thanks to everyone for replying. He's currently dealing with a couple of guys from one group, but his problems haven't been limited to them. He has friends. I was just on a field trip with the band and he's thick as thrives with his buddies in the brass section.
He does need a hobby. A sport. Something. He's in soccer right now but it's only one night a week and Saturday mornings. He recently started an underground cookie selling operation at school (paid for all the ingredients, makes them himself, he's in the black and making money) Next year he's in a different school and will have actual school sports to play with daily practices.
Middle school does suck. Kids are sorting themselves out socially and teachers either don't care or don't notice the nastiness. I'm quite sure he's going to get another beating or two on this path of discovery, but as a dad that sucks. On top of that, with the zero tolerance crap that happens he has a behavior record that is keeping him out of the top band next year despite being first chair.
I've known a couple of people with aspergers and I don't think that's where he is. We've talked about some sort of counselling, but he's really really opposed to it and I'm not sure how much use it would be to a kid who doesn't have any intention of listening. It's still an option.
Next year is a different school. Changing classes every hour. Sports. Same kids though.

Changing class every hour could help.

Glad you see zero tolerance policies for what they are!

Middle school does suck. Kids are sorting themselves out socially and teachers either don't care or don't notice the nastiness.

Just ask yourself how much you would want to be paid to proactively straighten out middle schooler behavior for the rest of your career, and then compare that to actual teacher salaries. It's hard for me to fault someone when I wouldn't do their job for their pay.

Yup. Middle school sucks. I've managed to block most of it from memory. Spending pretty much every class with the same 30 kids for 3 straight years is a special kind of torture for an introvert with a funny accent (GA kid a year removed living in PA).

My parents were middle school teachers. I don't know how they did it. I think they are other-worldy, or something.

I am remembering my middle school years... I've put a lot of that out of my mind. Not a lot of good memories.

I guess I was kind of like your son. I hated it. At the core, I really didn't like myself, and wanted desperately to be liked. Mostly, I took beatings, and worse.

In 6th grade I found something I was pretty good at- gymnastics. It was an OK place for a guy who didn't feel like he fit in. But then in 1 year from 7th to 8th grade I grew a 12" in height and DOUBLED my weight. That pretty much ended my gymnastics career, and any opportunity for anything athletic.

I won the Math Bee. Also was in an advanced experimental computer class. I was pretty smart, but that just made people hate me more.

I was a racial minority in the school I went to. That didn't help. My best friend up and moved one day with no warning. I never saw him again. I missed him terribly- he was all I had. He was cool, I was not, but he still liked me. It was over 30 years later that I learned he had been gang raped, and his parents moved to a "white town" to try to protect him. I was pretty angry at my parents when I learned as an adult that they had known that, and never told me, or cared enough about me to try to protect me from the same horror.

That's probably enough personal confession. Here's my take-away...

• First off, that "wolf pack" stuff is crap. Those are NOT his friends. Those are the guys he thinks are cool, but they hate him.

• Secondly- tell him so. I so desperately needed to hear from my parents not just that I was OK, but that the jerks were jerks. Don't be nice or politically correct about it. I needed my mother to tell me there were azzholes in the world, and that some of them had hurt my friend terribly, and that I could get hurt. I needed them to step in and DO SOMETHING about it. Instead, my parents were very proud about their community standing, and there were just some things that nice people don't talk about. berkeley that.

• Third- You gotta let his inner dweeb come out. You probably aren't totally comfortable with it. He probably doesn't need sports (that might be you, not him). That's just another place to prove how little he fits in. Mine was theatre. I didn't begin to grow up until I got to be loved by a bunch of theatre nerds. Maybe it's band- OK, so he can't be in the top band. How about an acapella group? A fife and bugle corps? One of the most fun bands I ever played in (believe it or not) was the VFW band. Bunch of old farts, but they sure had fun. I would almost guarantee the sports thing would not be positive. Star Trek Club? Science Club?

• Counseling- God I hated it. I felt like my parents couldn't handle things, and I was totally ashamed that I had to go to counseling. Having said that, consider it hard. Consider it for YOU, so you have the tools to help him. It's not that he won't listen, it's that he would be ashamed. Deal with it on that level. Help him understand that real men ask for help in ways like this, and introduce him to other kids who have done it.

I don't know if I am giving you anything- might just be digging up my own past. Hopefully you can glean something useful out of it.

I've got 2 sons now who show some of those characteristics, but we home school, and have been able to instill in them something I never had. They are not ashamed of who they are. That confidence in themselves has reaped relationships with other kids that are meaningful and worthwhile. They stay out of trouble.

Love him for who he is, and be his defender at times.

In reply to Vigo:

Quick note on the middle school teacher pay thing.

Sorry, I disagree.

Both my parents were incredible at it. They influenced hundreds and hundreds of kids, and loved it.

You can't EVER pay someone enough to do this job. They have to be motivated by something else. It's a calling.

DrBoost wrote: Following with interest. This sounds like my daughter.

+1 to some degree...

My vague memories of middle school are that it was E36 M3ty. Most of the time in most ways it was E36 M3ty, kids going through puberty at wildly different rates (and mine was way late), kids telling each other misinformation in an attempt to be cool or act like they know what is going on. Here's a hint middle school kids: you do not know anything yet. Just nothing.

I don't guess I have much useful advice for you or your son Mazduece, it's crappy but it will pass. And time being relative it will pass for you much more quickly than it will for him.

I would suggest you teach him a bit of "be cool, be confident". It's a lot better most of the time to be the quiet kid instead of the one who's mouth is always running. Quiet is cool. And when he does get picked on, if he is confident (maybe even a little tough) he'll come through that trial better too.

My son is 13 now and I struggle with this, I see him being goofy, saying dorky stuff, and being generally uncool and I think "why can't you just chill out and dial it back kid?" But until he has the self awareness to see how people see him he won't change.

There is probably nothing on the planet less self-aware than a 13 year old boy. I was certainly embarrassingly stupid, looking back. Not entirely sure I ever really improved, socially.

Given the choice to go back to my teenage years, I'd probably kick that Genie right in the nuts.

I am also still quite frightened of 13 year old girls.

Sounds like my 15 year old. Doesn't follow social cues very well and has issues with reading and writing. All related to a congenital heart condition. Adults love him and he does well with them. Kids just think he's weird and shy away. But we moved him to a private school where the teachers gave a E36 M3 and helped him catch up to the class. That vastly improved his self confidence and he found a couple of really good friends so things are looking up hugely. Not sure what the lesson is but I would say throw everything at his education and be sure he is not being left behind by the teachers. The rest might work itself out.