NASA (and Chinese/British) Provide Thrust without Fuel

Nasa validates 'impossible' space drive

Pretty cool stuff. Using only a 17kw power source, NASA was able to generate an incredibly small amount of thrust using only microwaves. The Chinese has tested this same idea before with a much larger power source without much larger output, meaning there is a good possibility the thruster could be scaled up.

What's interesting is that they don't really know how or why this device is producing thrust, just that it does. The articles I have read make it also sound like it may not require a vacuum to work. Star Wars Speeder, anyone?

They have yet to run vacuum tests I believe so that thrust number should in theory go up, if the Chinese are right then yes its scalable but you still have to get all the components into space somehow. Now for the underlying physics who the hack knows whats going on.

just needs more oscillation overthruster

Seriously, I am glad to see that NASA is still able to do the impossible on a daily basis

Guido Fetta? From the Italian side of Mandalore?

Seriously, if this ends up being a valid result, it changes the way pretty much everyone views space travel. I can't wait to see where this goes.

Odds are high that this is a measurement error, not an actual result.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2014/08/04/reactionless_motor_needs_more_evidence.html

Also, note that it's claimed to be thrust without reaction mass, not thrust without fuel. In a traditional rocket, the fuel+oxidizer provide both energy and reaction mass, but in something like a nuclear rocket engine or an ion drive the energy source and the reaction mass are different.

Wouldn't a 17kwh source of electricity require consumable fuel though?

Pretty much, at least here on Earth. A home generator could make that much pretty easily and if solar cells were scaled way up, like the ISS's, it could work. According to the ISS Wiki page, the solar cells power 24 BDU's (basically battery chargers) and each BDU does 6.6 kw.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_system_of_the_International_Space_Station

And yeah, it needs verification. I'd hate to see it become another 'cold fusion generator'.

In reply to Curmudgeon:

Can that large of a solar array actually withstand long distance travel through space though?

yamaha wrote: In reply to Curmudgeon: Can that large of a solar array actually withstand long distance travel through space though?

Sure, why not? They're typically designed to be folded at launch for travel through the atmosphere, and then unfolded in space where it's a vacuum and there's nothing to drag at it. Of course, solar cell power output depends on how far you are from the sun. If you're sending a probe to Mercury or Venus they work great, on Mars they work OK, but beyond that it's kind of a losing battle. Probes to the outer planets usually use an RTG (radioisotope thermoelectric generator) for power.

It should. Being weightless (of course can't forget inertia, though) huge solar cell arrays are reasonably easy to engineer. But yeah the further from a sun or star the weaker their output. The RTG is small and easily engineered for interplanetary flight.

The main drawback I see is that the engine could theoretically make some really high speeds BUT it will take a long time to get there, it just doesn't make huge thrust force. So it would probably have to be 'kickstarted' with a fairly conventional propulsion system then it takes over and slowly increases the ship's speed to its maximum. No free rides in physics!

no free rides in physics. But look at it this way.. an ample solar array to power this wee beastie of an engine might still weigh less and have less mass than chemical propellant, so that is less for that engine to push. This is win/win all over

Very true. It should work well at current scale for nudging satellites etc. When I mention extra boost I'm thinking larger scale, like interplanetary ships carrying us human vermin out to wreck the rest of the Solar System. That will take a pretty good nudge to get things moving to where this engine (or even ion propulsion) can bump the speeds up to a reasonable level. Ion engines so far:

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/about/fs21grc.html

mad_machine wrote: no free rides in physics.

Plausably true, but remember, most physics isn't understood yet.

foxtrapper wrote:

mad_machine wrote: no free rides in physics.

Plausably true, but remember, most physics isn't understood yet.

This, they aren't really sure why the heck this even works. Once we DO understand it, who knows what future advances will produce.

The wiki throws up some serious physics lingo:

Harold G. "Sonny" White, who investigates field propulsion at Eagleworks, NASA's Advanced Propulsion Physics Laboratory, notes that such resonant cavities may operate by creating a virtual plasma toroid that would realize net thrust using magnetohydrodynamics upon quantum vacuum fluctuations.[16]

So, basically he's saying a magnetic 'vacuum' might be the other half of the equation?

PHeller wrote: The wiki throws up some serious physics lingo: Harold G. "Sonny" White, who investigates field propulsion at Eagleworks, NASA's Advanced Propulsion Physics Laboratory, notes that such resonant cavities may operate by creating a virtual plasma toroid that would realize net thrust using magnetohydrodynamics upon quantum vacuum fluctuations.[16]

My mind read this in the voice of Isaac Hayes, "Chef" from South Park, to the tune of "when an elephant makes love to a pig."

PHeller wrote:

foxtrapper wrote:

mad_machine wrote: no free rides in physics.

Plausably true, but remember, most physics isn't understood yet.

This, they aren't really sure why the heck this even works. Once we DO understand it, who knows what future advances will produce.

They aren't even sure it does work yet. In fact, odds are it doesn't, and that the measured force is actually caused by some reaction-based effect that they've overlooked in the experiment design.

what is an interesting thought. If they are making thrust from microwaves forced into a chamber.. then perhaps the chamber can be tuned to produce more thrust. Think of this as a Model T head compared to today's 4 and 5 valve heads.

mapper wrote: Guido Fetta? From the Italian side of Mandalore?

Hard to get past this....

Edit : the googles show that he is the founder of cannae drives which has been searching propulsion methodology.

That microwave in a chamber with one end slightly leaky sounds a whole lot like a MASER to me, forerunner to the LASER.