Obama and Race- Will a beer fix the problem?

Duke wrote: Hold on there, chief - that sounds an awful lot like Mr. Pot calling Mr. Kettle a racist epithet. You've constructed your own imaginary position and you are interpreting the reported version of events in light of that, just as much as you're accusing SVreX of doing.

No, I'm going by the police report. To summarize, the officer was never under the impression that Gates was anyone but the homeowner, but he was "surprised and confused" by his bad behavior, and refused to continue the conversation indoors, inviting Gates outdoors where there was justification to arrest him for his behavior. The police report is certainly available on many websites.

You're reading written word and attaching meaning and intent. Pot. Kettle. Black.

Bobzilla wrote: You're reading written word and attaching meaning and intent. Pot. Kettle. Black.

I believe I've made my point. I won't be baited into a pissing match.

You've made your point that it is OK to be an elitist, racist bastard and get away with it. Then yes, you are correct.

Bobzilla wrote: You've made your point that it is OK to be an elitist, racist bastard and get away with it. Then yes, you are correct.

I believe I've made the point REPEATEDLY that I find there to be a difference between what I find acceptable and what I find arrest-worthy. Just because I maintain that Gates did not deserve to be arrested does not mean that I maintain that he was without fault or blame.

How about the Boston police officer that wrote an email to the Boston Globe calling Gates a (and I quote) "Banana Eating Jungle Monkey"? He hasn't been arrested, does that mean what he did was RIGHT, or does that mean there was a more appropriate way to address what he did wrong?

OK, I thought there was some special class at Harvard where you learn to insult people but the insult is so clever that the subject dosen't get it and then later on the insultor laughs about it over brandy at his club. What happened? And Obama's "cops acted stoopidly..." reaction is also lowbrow to the exact point of being embarassing to uppity people of all colors, including me.

Is there a separate thread to disparage their beer selections? And Biden's choice.....no comment. Futhermore, good beer, gift from the gods that it is, should not be sullied by drinking it over forced discourse.

could be that one is nuts and the other is crazy. not to worry all things must pass.

Wowak wrote:

Bobzilla wrote: You've made your point that it is OK to be an elitist, racist bastard and get away with it. Then yes, you are correct.

I believe I've made the point REPEATEDLY that I find there to be a difference between what I find acceptable and what I find arrest-worthy. Just because I maintain that Gates did not deserve to be arrested does not mean that I maintain that he was without fault or blame. How about the Boston police officer that wrote an email to the Boston Globe calling Gates a (and I quote) "Banana Eating Jungle Monkey"? He hasn't been arrested, does that mean what he did was RIGHT, or does that mean there was a more appropriate way to address what he did wrong?

You have not once said outrioght that Gates actions were deplorable. You've done all you can to make him out to be the victim. The only thing he is a victim of is his mouth.

Wowak wrote: No, I'm going by the police report. To summarize, the officer was never under the impression that Gates was anyone but the homeowner, but he was "surprised and confused" by his bad behavior, and refused to continue the conversation indoors, inviting Gates outdoors where there was justification to arrest him for his behavior. The police report is certainly available on many websites.

OK, so per your sugggestion I read the police report. I kind of wish I didn't, because I used to think you had a point.

smoking gun police report

So what if Gates was the homeowner? He wasn't arrested for being the homeowner, he was arrested for disorderly conduct, a point clearly made in the police report, and corraborated by others. The guy was disorderly. There are laws about stuff like that.

He voluntarily left his home, and continued his verbal assault on an officer, with several other officers standing by as well as several citizens as witnesses. What did he think would happen?

I understand you've had issues with cops. Me too. Given the circumstances described, how in the world would you have suggested the officer respond??

Sounds like your basic perspective is that all cops are ashatts, that they have no right to perform their job, they are always wrong, and that they should stay out of all of our lives because we'd be better off without them. I mean no disrespect, but perspectives like that frequently lead to more confrontations and problems with authorities.

SVreX wrote: So what if Gates was the homeowner?

As soon as Crowley determined that Gates was the homeowner, his purpose in being there ceased to exist.

Gates' actions were inappropriate and reprehensible, but in the long run his loud mouth doesn't and didn't actually hurt anybody. I'll ask again: How was the public served or protected by arresting Gates? Don't point out disorderly conduct laws to me, if we could flip a switch and suddenly have the means to enforce all laws and prosecute to the fullest extent, we'd all be in jail. Personally I'm of the opinion that "disorderly conduct" has been severely distorted in its meaning, and its current definition (or lack thereof) infringes on the 1st ammendment, but that's an argument for another day.

Scenario 1: Police show up, determine Gates is the homeowner, take tongue-lashing, leave. Life goes on. Scenario 2: Police show up, determine Gates is the homeowner, DON'T take verbal tongue-lashing, arrest Gates. National scandal ensues. Scenario 3: Police show up, determine Gates is the homeowner, take tongue lashing, leave. Gates incites riot. Dozens are injured, 2 die.

Does anybody believe that 3rd scenario was going to happen? Really?

YEs. #3 is plausable. Because, Gates being the racist person with influence that he is would have gone to the media, spoken in public about his "abuse" with no record from the police dept to say otherwise. "Rallies" would have happened, demanding the officers removed from duty/fired. Rodney King? Anyone remember that name? his was drastic, but the right person throwing enough mud and racist remarks and it happens all over again.

At least with a police record on file, they have written proof that there was another side to the story, one that is SUBSTANTIATED by witnesses.

Bobzilla wrote: At least with a police record on file, they have written proof that there was another side to the story, one that is SUBSTANTIATED by witnesses.

The civilian witness refutes details of the police report, and we all know how reliable other cops are as witnesses: http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local-beat/Cops-Set-Up-Woman-After-Crash.html

What's Miami have to do with this? Either bring up RELEVANT facts or shut it. You don't like cops. Too bad for you. Apparently you have a beef with them that has NOTHING to do with fact or reality here in this case. Mustbe terrible living your life with that much hatred day to day. I choose to live on the brighter side of things and try and find the good. That's why Mr Gates grates my nerves so bad. He breeds hatred.

Bobzilla wrote: What's Miami have to do with this?

So the fact that the first 3 cops to show up to a MVA involving another cop are ALL willing to lie to protect him isn't an indication of a larger problem? Not the slightest bit? People think I'm looking so hard to see the corruption but that seems like nothing compared to how hard you must have to ignore reality to NOT see it.

Wowak wrote: As soon as Crowley determined that Gates was the homeowner, his purpose in being there ceased to exist.

Actually, the initial purpose of the response ceased to exist, but Mr. Gates chose to give the officers another reason to be there. So, I submit that Scenario A (before any of your other scenarios could have happened) is:

Scenario A: Police show up, determine Gates is the homeowner, and apologize for the misunderstanding when Mr. Gates acts in an appropriate manner. Life goes on. If the officers respond in any other way, Mr. gates certainly has a case against them, and has 7 corroborating witnesses.

If someone in MY neighborhood (including ME) acts like Mr. Gates allegedly acted in the police report, I WANT the police to arrest the offender. No questions asked.

But Wowack, while you chased this tremendously enormous rabbit based on your own personal experiences and biases, you completely missed my point.

Using your scenario:

Wowak wrote: Scenario 2: Police show up, determine Gates is the homeowner, DON'T take verbal tongue-lashing, arrest Gates. National scandal ensues.

Was the natural consequence of your scenario REALLY a national scandal? Why? It only BECAME a national scandal when President Obama CHOSE to make it one. Which was incredibly foolish, IMHO.

Wowak wrote:

Bobzilla wrote: What's Miami have to do with this?

So the fact that the first 3 cops to show up to a MVA involving another cop are ALL willing to lie to protect him isn't an indication of a larger problem? Not the slightest bit? People think I'm looking so hard to see the corruption but that seems like nothing compared to how hard you must have to ignore reality to NOT see it.

Absolutely not.

It is a ridiculous assumption that there is any relation whatsoever.

Your suggestion that all cops are somehow genetically bred to be the same as 3 Miami miscreants is absurd.

Yes. He's right. All Cops are the same. All are corrupt. All civilians are angels and there is no need for any police involvement ever. WE are stupid to even think that there are good cops in the world and that any civilian would ever do anything wrong. how could we be so stupid.

Bobzilla wrote: Yes. He's right. All Cops are the same. All are corrupt. All civilians are angels and there is no need for any police involvement ever. WE are stupid to even think that there are good cops in the world and that any civilian would ever do anything wrong. how could we be so stupid.

I guess I should have known better than to expect intelligent discussion of such an emotionally charged issue. Sorry.

Wowak wrote: I guess I should have known better than to expect intelligent discussion of such an emotionally charged issue. Sorry.

When you manage not to be emotionally charged about it, please let us know, and we'll be glad to discuss it.

Duke wrote: When you manage not to be emotionally charged about it, please let us know, and we'll be glad to discuss it.

And when you and Bobzilla want to discuss the issue and not my personal bias, please let ME know.

Can't have an open discussion on a topic when you have an open bias right off the bat and refuse to accept anyone else's viewpoint.

Anyone else ever notice that those that are the most "open minded" and throw that phrase around the most are usually the most CLOSED minded people you will find? When you do not agree with their viewpoint, you are now closed minded. They are open minded because they do not agree with you and tell you you're wong... I love it.

Wowak wrote: Scenario 1: Police show up, determine Gates is the homeowner, take tongue-lashing, leave. Life goes on. Scenario 2: Police show up, determine Gates is the homeowner, DON'T take verbal tongue-lashing, arrest Gates. National scandal ensues. Scenario 3: Police show up, determine Gates is the homeowner, take tongue lashing, leave. Gates incites riot. Dozens are injured, 2 die.

Scenario 4: Police show up, determine Gates is the homeowner. Gates thanks them for responding quickly when they thought that his house was at risk. Everyone shakes hands and has a good day.

Would that be so bad?

Sad to see this has deteriorated to this. I really was interested.

SVreX wrote: Sad to see this has deteriorated to this. I really was interested.

I don't think the thread deteriorated.

In fact, it's a perfect example of how pre-conceived notions and biases can skew and then screw-up an event that should/could have had a more reasonable resolution.

It happens in Cambridge; it happens on this board; it happens everywhere.

Point taken.