Paging Curtis or theater tech people

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Thanks Curtis. I passed this along to a colleague who is running this particular project. He laughed and asked if "eye nut" was safe to search with his work computer. 

Maybe I'm being dense...

If the entire thing has a removable cover, why do you need eye nuts?  Can't you permanently install an electric winch above the ceiling with whatever quick attachment you want?  We raise tens of thousands of pounds on clevis hooks every day on construction sites. 
 

Better yet, make the removable cover a long cover over a trough, and leave the pipe, wires, and all rigging attached hiding above the ceiling ready to be lowered by winch when the cover is renovated. Design the cover plates to be part of the aesthetic design of the ceiling. 

SV reX said:

Maybe I'm being dense...

If the entire thing has a removable cover, why do you need eye nuts?  Can't you permanently install an electric winch above the ceiling with whatever quick attachment you want?  We raise tens of thousands of pounds on clevis hooks every day on construction sites. 
 

Better yet, make the removable cover a long cover over a trough, and leave the pipe, wires, and all rigging attached hiding above the ceiling ready to be lowered by winch when the cover is renovated. Design the cover plates to be part of the aesthetic design of the ceiling. 

The winch idea is a good one. I'm just uninformed about the hardware for "rental" equipment that gets brought in for a trade show or stage event.

Originally, I was guessing that industry must have some kind of standard attachment device - like the way a Connex container sits on a standard pin at each corner. But maybe it is just MacGuyver instead of ACME for this stuff.

I think holding the structure slightly above the ceiling, so the cover can hide it when it's not in use, and a fitting that can bring the connection below the ceiling - is a logical solution. I guess this stuff isn't as "standard" as I had imagined. 

In reply to OHSCrifle :

If you make the cover right, an entire truss could be stored above the ceiling. 
 

Heck, if the cover's big enough, the truss could have lighting instruments hanging on it. 
 

Very little standard. Lots of MacGuvyers in theatre. 

I think you need a beautiful design for an automated cover, not a standardized eye hook. 

My suggestion...

Talk with a lighting designer about a "standard" color wash for the area. Include dimming console and everything. Install the instruments permanently on a truss that conceals itself in the ceiling. 
 

Leave empty space and extra capacity and circuits so a traveling group could add a few instruments as needed. 
 

Most of the time, the permanent system will suffice with some refocusing. 

He did mention that the ceiling will be 3-4" below the roof structure.  That might be a non-issue if the designer and architect say "no problem, we'll just re-draft and re-engineer for the ceiling to be 48" below and call it good."  Not sure they want to spare the space for a 2' truss, 1' of chain and 1' of hoist being hidden above the ceiling.  Still, a very good suggestion for a turnkey, press-a-button solution.

Also, it wouldn't need to be a full truss, it could be some 1.5" sched 40 steel pipe with a 1/4" wire rope every 10 feet and you can likely hang 2000 lbs on it.  Then you would only need loft blocks and the winch could be 30' away in a soffit at the corner of the room.  The only engineering downside would be that the loft blocks couldn't be 4" pulleys, they would have to be 20" monsters to maintain the capacity of the wire rope.

There are a thousand ways to skin this cat ranging from cheap, to a cool million.  The simple way to make it disappear is having rigging points only.  The sassy fun way is to have a fully-articulated winch and truss system.

The easy button would be to find some of the local production rental firms and start asking.  Some of them do their own grid/rig contracting, but most will farm it out to JR Clancy or a similar company.  Go to them with blueprints and ceiling load ratings.  Most won't even have a conversation without that information because it's a waste of their time.

I just got a quote to replace my grid.  I sent them blueprints, but since it was built in 1953 (and never intended to be configured the way we have it) there were never specific roof loading specs other than snow.  The architect no longer existed, so I had to research through the municipality who held the current blueprints.  They were able to slide it to their engineer who calculated the numbers, did an on-site visit to verify, and then I was able to get a quote for a 50' x 40' steel pipe grid with 4' square spacing.  (for reference, $38k for a static grid, 8 nodes of cat6 and a switch, and artnet DMX.  I would install my own power distro)  You have the advantage of new construction.  All of your people are right there and not lost 70 years ago like mine.

Do you have a photo or section view of the space in question that you can share?  I can sketch some ideas of what I might do.  I can't quote you on stuff or handle the engineering, but coming up with stupid ideas that make engineers laugh is my specialty.

OHSCrifle said:

In reply to dyintorace :

In town Atlanta on the Beltline between North Avenue and Ralph McGill Blvd. Close to Ponce City Market and Old 4th Ward Park.

Makes sense. That area of ATL is exploding with development!

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

You are right. I missed the 3-4", but it may be worth considering a minor redesign. 
 

There is nothing wrong with schedule 40 pipe for space savings. But the trusses sure look more impressive. 
 

My concern about fixed rigging points is who is gonna do the rigging each time?  Is the hotel really ready to accept the liability of the load-in every time it is used?  That's a LOT of work. 1 mistake would put them at risk. 
 

My guess is that the permanent fixed rigging points would get used no more than once in a lifetime. Once they see what it takes and realize what is happening, they won't use it again. 
 

Even if it ended up being a fixed rigging point system, I'd really advocate for the winches. It changes the entire risk dynamic, and makes it significantly more likely it will get used regularly.

Hang on...

His post said he has 3-4 FEET above the finished ceiling, NOT 3-4". 
 

Permanent truss on a winch. 

Here's the problem...

Once you eliminate the towers, you take away any method to ratchet the tower into place loaded with lighting instruments. Every single pipe, instrument, cable, etc will have to be taken up to the ceiling individually. 
 

OSHA would say that this stuff can't be carried up a ladder. (3 point of contact rule). It would need to be done by scissor lift, or a block and tackle of some sort. Then once the install is completed, the safety of the occupants of the assembly space has to be considered. Who's gonna verify the safety wires, rigging safety, electrical safety, etc?  The hotel most certainly won't want anything to do with it. 
 

I realize the reality is that a theatre guy WOULD use a ladder, etc. But if there is EVER an incident or a safety inspection, someone is gonna have to be responsible. 
 

I wouldn't design a system that requires that much manual labor, with that much potential for error. The winched truss solves all that (because the equipment can be loaded at floor level and winched into place with the push of a button).

Yep. I was going to suggest some sort of winch system earlier. The only question I have with that is running the wires for the lights and how they would get run.  From the ceiling and down along the cable on some sort of festoon like system?  Or just hanging down and then run over to the controller as if a tower were there.  I get the impression the latter would not be preferred, but the former will be significantly more involved to design and install. Especially given the wiring will need to be flexible enough to allow for different lighting scenes (multiple circuits). 

I am currently working at a construction site that takes fall protection very seriously. Anyone on an decent height ladder has to be harnessed and tied off with fall protection. Tie-off is also required when in lifts.  With that in mind, whatever is designed should probably have some tie-off points added so that if last minute adjustments have to be made, then a crew member on a ladder can do so without having to lower the rig but be properly tied off while working. 

Definitely a far cry from the crazy stuff I used to do with ladders and lifts (or ladders in lifts when the lift didn't go high enough) back when I was doing stage work.  Or hanging off a catwalk from my waist with another crew member sitting on my legs while I replaced a broken lamp 30' above the audience below... Fun times... 

SV reX said:

Hang on...

His post said he has 3-4 FEET above the finished ceiling, NOT 3-4". 
 

Permanent truss on a winch. 

SV reX said:

Here's the problem...

Once you eliminate the towers, you take away any method to ratchet the tower into place loaded with lighting instruments. Every single pipe, instrument, cable, etc will have to be taken up to the ceiling individually. 
 

OSHA would say that this stuff can't be carried up a ladder. (3 point of contact rule). It would need to be done by scissor lift, or a block and tackle of some sort. Then once the install is completed, the safety of the occupants of the assembly space has to be considered. Who's gonna verify the safety wires, rigging safety, electrical safety, etc?  The hotel most certainly won't want anything to do with it. 
 

I realize the reality is that a theatre guy WOULD use a ladder, etc. But if there is EVER an incident or a safety inspection, someone is gonna have to be responsible. 
 

I wouldn't design a system that requires that much manual labor, with that much potential for error. The winched truss solves all that (because the equipment can be loaded at floor level and winched into place with the push of a button).

^^^ This.

Drop in the truss for hang, ladder for focus.

In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :

The wiring isn't really a problem. Theatre people make cable loops all the time, because everything they hang moves. Industrial machinery does similar nickel sheathed OSHA compliant versions when they've got a table that moves, etc 

Standard theatrical electrical design. 

This is how a theatrical flying lighting position is usually set up. 
 

The permanent wiring is done in a trough above the pipe. This has a loop at the end of the pipe so it can be raised and lowered. The trough has twist lock pigtails that hang down. That much is part of the building. Permanent wiring done by a licensed electrician.  The circuits are all run to a patch panel backstage. 
 

The theatre lighting tech hangs his lighting instruments on the pipe below.  All he does is plug stuff into the twist locks. He doesn't need to be licensed. 
 

If none of that is part of the building, there is a LOT of stuff to load in for a show, and some if it should technically be done by a licensed electrician. 

SV reX said:

Hang on...

His post said he has 3-4 FEET above the finished ceiling, NOT 3-4". 
 

Permanent truss on a winch. 

The three or four feet are full of ductwork, fire sprinklers...  
Ain't no room to recess a truss. 

I think a d-ring and portable hoist attached within an open access panel would work. Now the power question is a whole 'nother can of worms. 

..regardless I appreciate the continued convo. 

Lights don't work without electric. 

In reply to OHSCrifle :

Im still curious...

Where are they gonna store the truss when not in use?

In reply to OHSCrifle :

Could you design a decorative "beam" into the space that hung below the ceiling and was actually a box concealing a catwalk with lighting positions?

SV reX said:

In reply to OHSCrifle :

Im still curious...

Where are they gonna store the truss when not in use?

Presumably in a truck that drives away after the wedding. Otherwise.. not too sure. 

I guess the answer is to give your customer what they want (concealed attachment points). I strongly doubt it will ever get used, but that's not my problem (or yours).

The ability to hang a truss doesn't solve things like the electric issues. Every lighting instrument needs an individual cable connecting it to power. With no towers, there is nothing to neatly secure the cables to. My opinion is that a neatly executed truss tower is much nicer than 20 or 30 random electric cables hanging from the ceiling, but that's just me. 
 

I'll be interested in hearing what your solutions are. 

In reply to OHSCrifle :

Another option: permanently mount lights in a soffit that is open towards the stage?  Something similar to this (very rough sketch):

I've seen lights installed this way so that you really don't see them unless you are on the stage looking up. Even from directly below they aren't readily obvious.

In reply to SV reX :

In a theater there is a catwalk up above and probably every kind of power imaginable.

If we furnish power above the access panels it'd be a crapshoot for what receptacles type, what voltages and what amperage.. it's a lot easier to hit a target that is known. I appreciate all the interaction - its way more than I hoped. 

SV reX said:

I guess the answer is to give your customer what they want (concealed attachment points). I strongly doubt it will ever get used, but that's not my problem (or yours).

 

The ability to hang a truss doesn't solve things like the electric issues. Every lighting instrument needs an individual cable connecting it to power. With no towers, there is nothing to neatly secure the cables to. My opinion is that a neatly executed truss tower is much nicer than 20 or 30 random electric cables hanging from the ceiling, but that's just me. 
 

I'll be interested in hearing what your solutions are. 

I would assume most production houses are going to bring LED lighting.  If that's the case you can powercon daisy-chain about 9 pars, 4 movers, or 5 lekos on one 15-20A circuit.  More if it's 208v or 240v.  I suppose they could run some edison outlets up to the ceiling and drop a couple powercons down to the truss/pipe/trough/whatever.  They'll have to run DMX anyway.  Might as well put power up there as well.

Ian, I like the idea of just buying the lights and permanently mounting them, but I don't know how flexible the space needs to be.  If the stage is permanent or always on one side of the room, that's good, but I would imagine having multiple options would be nice for banquets or if they decide to put the wedding band on the east wall instead of the north.

Edit to add:  The Hilton I sometimes do lights for... their banquet hall has a square raised soffit in the middle of the ceiling as the only rated rigging area.  It makes things really annoying when a banquet asks for drop/pin spots at each table.  I say, as long as you're engineering rigging points, put them EVERYWHERE.  We've done some shady E36 M3 there.