Paging rural GRMers: Learn me clearing land

Antihero said:

Id call up a logging company and see if you have enough there to make it worthwhile. The will also cut in the road to do what they need to do so itll be like getting it for free.

 

Ive lived in the woods for many years, you dont need to buy anything exotic and any equipment you need to level for homesites is better hired than bought, especially the more digging you need

Around here it's hard to get anybody to log a small parcel.  A co-worker had a 10 acre property and he was willing to give them the trees.   No-one would bother.      

True,   True,

spitfirebill said:

Antihero said:

Id call up a logging company and see if you have enough there to make it worthwhile. The will also cut in the road to do what they need to do so itll be like getting it for free.

 

Ive lived in the woods for many years, you dont need to buy anything exotic and any equipment you need to level for homesites is better hired than bought, especially the more digging you need

Around here it's hard to get anybody to log a small parcel.  A co-worker had a 10 acre property and he was willing to give them the trees.   No-one would bother.      

I was able to selectively log an 8 acre parcel and made a good sum off of it. there are small job guys you just have to look a bit harder

In reply to Antihero :

I suspect there'd be a few more willing to do so now that lumber prices from out of country are comparatively absurd. If OP was up north I could recommend someone who owns a sawmill and would be interested. Distance is a bit prohibitive.

I bought a good saw for maintaining my property which is about 4 acres (I intended to buy the 96 behind me too but that's a whole other bucket of butthurt.) Yea you spend some money on a good one but I can run it for 6 or 7 hours a day without too much fatigue.

1988RedT2 said:

Napalm.  It worked in 'Nam, and it can work for you.

Agent Orange - kills the vegetation.

nderwater said:

Great info so far, I appreciate it.  It sounds like my best option is to pay someone with a forestry mulcher (like a Hydro Ax) to initially clear out all the brush and small trees.  I plan to keep as many big trees as is practical... ultimately we want to be able to freely walk the property between them.

Going forward it sounds like I'll need to buy a good used 4wd tractor with some specific accessories. I don't know a thing about tractors, but they seem to be classed by horsepower (25, 35, 45, 55, etc).  What sizes and brands would you recommend?

The properties we're considering currently look more or less like this:

Maybe im messed up in the head but that looks like a fun project. 

As far as what tractor, anything from the major brands, jd, ih, etc. I would steer clear of the off brands like mahindra because i would be worried about parts availability. I see plenty of people using bush hogs behind 8n fords which i think were in the neighborhood of 30 hp, so it doesnt take much. My advice is always buy something with a three point hitch, live pto, and hydraulic hookups, but anything with front wheel assist will be modern enough to have all that. You will want a front end loader for this project, and you are better off to buy a tractor with a loader already on it. Buying the loader seperately is usually hard to find, expensive, and they can be a pain to install. I would buy a farm tractor before i would buy a compact utility, the more common the model the better. They are bigger and less maneuverable, but the are built a lot heavier. I say buy a common model because it makes used parts easier to find if you need to. Tractors depreciation curves dont bottom out the way cars do, so if you buy one right and take care of it it will still be worth as much as you paid for it ten years from now (but once you get a good one you will never want to sell it.) Tires are stupid expensive, like $1000-1500 for a pair of rears, so take that into account when shopping. A lot of the newer smaller stuff is hydrostatic. Some people like that, and i guess they are ok, but for me a tractor should have a real clutch and a real gear shifter. I guess if a wife/kids will be using it hydro might be preferable, i guess thats more of a personal preference issue.

Re: buying a tractor....

Yes, for the most part they are categorized by hp which suggests the amount of implement it will drive, how much weight it will balance on a three-point hitch, etc.  You'll find that hp is not the true limiting factor and most tractors will have more than enough for whatever you want to do.  I used a 5' brush hog on a John Deere 650, which is a compact/mid 18hp utility tractor.  Aside from having to hang 200 lbs of weights on the front to prevent wheelies, it did just fine in the power department.  What I'm saying is, size is the more important factor.  A new 35hp tractor might be the same size/weight of an older 20hp tractor, but don't let that be your determining factor.  They'll all get the work done, you just may have to do it a little slower.  I spent a lot of time on a 7000-lb John Deere G from the 40s that only made 20 hp from a monster 413 ci 2-cylinder engine.  It would easily drag an 8' brush hog or a 5-bottom plow, you just did it in a lower gear.  A comparable replacement (size wise) today might have 60 hp.

If you're buying new (which I don't necessarily suggest), my top picks are Kubota, Mahindra, and New Holland.  John Deere is still a fine choice, but they have taken a few steps toward being an assembler rather than a manufacturer.  That's not a bad thing, but some of their compact/mid tractors aren't proving to be quite as reliable as their former glory.  If you buy used, it's a big world out there.  Late 70s-mid 80s Ford tractors (pre new holland era) don't command big bucks (because they don't have the new Holland name on them) but they are true workhorses.  Dad has a 1978 Ford 1900 4wd.  It really works hard and takes abuse.  It was a municipal tractor so its first 3000 hours were abuse, and we have since put another 2000 hours on it of heavy hydraulic use (backhoe and loader) and it will not die.  This can be said for most tractors.  They are so remarkably overbuilt.  Dad and I have tractors dating back to the 1930s and they still get used on the farm for real work.  No idea how many hours are on them.  Possibly tens of thousands with almost no repairs.

60s-70s Massey Ferguson 135 is a good bet, but they're hard to find in 4wd

Daddy just bought a New Holland Boomer 45 that is just chub-worthy, but it was new and with the loader and options it was nearly $40k.

Whatever you get, please make sure it has safety gear intact and has ROPS (roll bar) and a seat belt.  It doesn't seem that necessary at 3 mph, but I've rolled tractors before and it's the only thing that saved my life.  You're not going fast so it feels safe and stable, but the torque they make (along with massive gear reductions) means that one mistake can send you flying.  The first one I rolled was just user error.  We were loading an old Ford 8N and forgot ramps for the trailer.  I got the brilliant idea to chain the axle to the foundation of the barn and use 1st gear to crawl the front up in a wheelie, then back the trailer under it and crawl the back wheels up on the trailer.  All went well until one of the back tires popped back down causing me to pop the clutch.  This lurched the other tire up on the trailer, wheelied the front, and it landed on its side on the roll bar.  If the guy I was buying it from hadn't fabbed up that roll bar, I might not be typing this right now.  This is, of course, a case of sheer stupidity on my part, but I had driven 500 miles to buy this thing and I wasn't going to let a lack of ramps stop me.  Tractors' abilities make you want to try stupid things.

Another suggestion if you're going to be keeping some trees:  Pay the extra for the folding roll bar.  They fold down in the middle and still provide a little bit of protection, but they get out of the way for tree branches or low garage doors.

Around here, you can find some used gems at auction sales, but if the Amish show up, they always take the high bid.  Yesterdays Tractors magazine is a good resource.  They have a forum with some nice folks and a classifieds section.  Craigslist is fair for tractors around here, but good old fashioned newspaper classifieds still turn up diamonds.

gearheadmb said:

nderwater said:

Great info so far, I appreciate it.  It sounds like my best option is to pay someone with a forestry mulcher (like a Hydro Ax) to initially clear out all the brush and small trees.  I plan to keep as many big trees as is practical... ultimately we want to be able to freely walk the property between them.

Going forward it sounds like I'll need to buy a good used 4wd tractor with some specific accessories. I don't know a thing about tractors, but they seem to be classed by horsepower (25, 35, 45, 55, etc).  What sizes and brands would you recommend?

The properties we're considering currently look more or less like this:

Maybe im messed up in the head but that looks like a fun project. 

As far as what tractor, anything from the major brands, jd, ih, etc. I would steer clear of the off brands like mahindra because i would be worried about parts availability. I see plenty of people using bush hogs behind 8n fords which i think were in the neighborhood of 30 hp, so it doesnt take much. My advice is always buy something with a three point hitch, live pto, and hydraulic hookups, but anything with front wheel assist will be modern enough to have all that. You will want a front end loader for this project, and you are better off to buy a tractor with a loader already on it. Buying the loader seperately is usually hard to find, expensive, and they can be a pain to install. I would buy a farm tractor before i would buy a compact utility, the more common the model the better. They are bigger and less maneuverable, but the are built a lot heavier. I say buy a common model because it makes used parts easier to find if you need to. Tractors depreciation curves dont bottom out the way cars do, so if you buy one right and take care of it it will still be worth as much as you paid for it ten years from now (but once you get a good one you will never want to sell it.) Tires are stupid expensive, like $1000-1500 for a pair of rears, so take that into account when shopping. A lot of the newer smaller stuff is hydrostatic. Some people like that, and i guess they are ok, but for me a tractor should have a real clutch and a real gear shifter. I guess if a wife/kids will be using it hydro might be preferable, i guess thats more of a personal preference issue.

I agree with everything here except the Mahindra parts thing.  Their footprint is satisfactory here and growing rapidly.  Tractor preference is pretty regional, though.  Go to WV and its all New Holland and Gravely.  PA is Kubota and John Deere.  Midwest seems to favor IH.  So you might be limited to choosing brands that have a good dealer representation in your specific area.... unless you don't mind waiting for shipping.

One other suggestion I'll make.  In your size needs (probably 25-40hp) I would strongly suggest diesel.  Not only do they have more torque in general, they are built to truly industrial standards.  The engine in Dad's Boomer 45 is the same one used in Catarpillar's commercial backup generators.  They are designed to run the first time, every time under the worst conditions with old fuel, long periods of inop, heavy loads with high duty cycles.  Not that gas is bad, there is just no reason to specifically seek a gas tractor these days.

I also prefer hydrostat.  It seems like there would be more to fail compared to a manual box, but I have never had one fail on me.  Hydro is also so nice as it keeps you hands free for the operation of implements and other things.  No stop and start and no grind it till you find it.  Super nice.

Live PTO, yes.  Also consider cockpit layout.  The 1978 Ford dad has (manual trans) is a royal pain to get on and off.  There isn't much room between the loader boom and the fender, and very little foot room, so pedal operation is cramped.  Getting in and out requires swinging your foot over the fender and seat.  His new Boomer is like a living room.  All of the controls are on the dash, the ample foot boards, or left and right of the seat.  Getting on that is like walking down a sidewalk and sitting on a park bench.

I feel your pain! Just be glad you don't have bamboo!

Have been fighting the frontier for years here.  This picture is a month after moving the car here. Spent 2 years with chainsaws, machettes and various other impliments to get it mowable.  I am now about 30 feet deeper into the jungle while I started about 120 feet the other direction 2 years before. Notice the burn pile that rarely got cold and the various vines that seek to fill in the fresh cleared area.

If I were to do it over again, I would have just hired a bulldozer!

Bruce

In reply to Antihero :

Logging companies are sort of the middle men. They have to get the trees, saw them into commercial sizes. And then sell the wood to a sawmill. 

You don’t want a logging company, you want to work with a sawmill. The right size and type of Sawmill. 

Not all sawmills have a market for the variety of wood especially small sized plots.   Pallet mills, railroad tie mills can take just about any sort of wood as long as they are big enough.  They will tell the loggers where to go. 

Its kind of a matter of finding the not too big, not to small but just right sized sawmill. It also helps a lot if you know what you are talking about.  What kind and size are the majority of trees? 

Small mills may specialize in one or two wood species. For example red oak and Ash.  Nothing bigger than 24 inches because it won’t fit on their woodmizer or Alaska.  Plus land near urban centers is avoided because of the likelihood of embedded metal.  

While other mills have large circular saws with replaceable teeth. A few even have top and bottom saws and can handle really giant size logs without the waste too small a mill will have. 

Volume is next.  High volume mills tend to be very inflexible only taking certain size and types of logs. 

Full time Pallet mills tend to be better than small part time woodmizer type operations. Or giant production sawmills.  A full time mom and pop or family operation. Tends to be the most flexible and helpful.  

Likely wont find them on the internet but down some back country road.  Talk to equipment dealers, skid steer dealers, they will tell you where one or two are but some counties might have 20-15 sawmills who buy from other dealers or auctions etc.  finding them is best done at the sawmill, “ who else besides you saws lumber”? 

egnorant said:

I feel your pain! Just be glad you don't have bamboo!

 

Have been fighting the frontier for years here.  This picture is a month after moving the car here. Spent 2 years with chainsaws, machettes and various other impliments to get it mowable.  I am now about 30 feet deeper into the jungle while I started about 120 feet the other direction 2 years before. Notice the burn pile that rarely got cold and the various vines that seek to fill in the fresh cleared area.

If I were to do it over again, I would have just hired a bulldozer!

 

Bruce

... Or japanese knotweed.  I'll take bamboo any day over that stuff.

The only thing I'd add is there are usually places you can't reach with a tractor, so be prepared to supplement with a gas powered trimmer with a sawblade attachment. 

Its 10 acres. Pay someone to clear it out and it will be done in no time. Do it yourself and book at least two months. Your call. I agree with the hydro and chip in place if you cannot haul out the wood. 

frenchyd said:

In reply to Antihero :

Logging companies are sort of the middle men. They have to get the trees, saw them into commercial sizes. And then sell the wood to a sawmill. 

You don’t want a logging company, you want to work with a sawmill. The right size and type of Sawmill. 

Not all sawmills have a market for the variety of wood especially small sized plots.   Pallet mills, railroad tie mills can take just about any sort of wood as long as they are big enough.  They will tell the loggers where to go. 

Its kind of a matter of finding the not too big, not to small but just right sized sawmill. It also helps a lot if you know what you are talking about.  What kind and size are the majority of trees? 

Small mills may specialize in one or two wood species. For example red oak and Ash.  Nothing bigger than 24 inches because it won’t fit on their woodmizer or Alaska.  Plus land near urban centers is avoided because of the likelihood of embedded metal.  

While other mills have large circular saws with replaceable teeth. A few even have top and bottom saws and can handle really giant size logs without the waste too small a mill will have. 

Volume is next.  High volume mills tend to be very inflexible only taking certain size and types of logs. 

Full time Pallet mills tend to be better than small part time woodmizer type operations. Or giant production sawmills.  A full time mom and pop or family operation. Tends to be the most flexible and helpful.  

Likely wont find them on the internet but down some back country road.  Talk to equipment dealers, skid steer dealers, they will tell you where one or two are but some counties might have 20-15 sawmills who buy from other dealers or auctions etc.  finding them is best done at the sawmill, “ who else besides you saws lumber”? 

  

You can talk to the mill and they can give you an idea of who to call but the end goal is you personally picking someone to work your property, which is should be because thats the person onsite. Calling the mill and having them assign a logger to you is like calling up Home Depot and taking however they send out, sure you can....but why would you?

Im from a logging town, its something ive dealt with a lot, you really really want to pick your logging outfit because the wrong one is a disaster

nderwater said:

 I’ll soon be responsible for grooming and caring for 5-10 acres of land that is currently wild forest, almost none of which is level.

 

So do you own this ground?

I looked at the ATL CL to try to find you some tractors i thought would be a good fit. The used tractor market in your area aint worth a E36 M3. 

I really haven't started tractor hunting yet.  We have to close on the property first, then the top priorities will be to get power and water sorted out.  Any serious clearing work would likely follow that.

Bulldozer and a flame thrower.

Time for a BLU-82

Wild Forest

Better check local regs to see if you can clear it.

 some states have regulations on woodlands.

Antihero said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to Antihero :

Logging companies are sort of the middle men. They have to get the trees, saw them into commercial sizes. And then sell the wood to a sawmill. 

You don’t want a logging company, you want to work with a sawmill. The right size and type of Sawmill. 

Not all sawmills have a market for the variety of wood especially small sized plots.   Pallet mills, railroad tie mills can take just about any sort of wood as long as they are big enough.  They will tell the loggers where to go. 

Its kind of a matter of finding the not too big, not to small but just right sized sawmill. It also helps a lot if you know what you are talking about.  What kind and size are the majority of trees? 

Small mills may specialize in one or two wood species. For example red oak and Ash.  Nothing bigger than 24 inches because it won’t fit on their woodmizer or Alaska.  Plus land near urban centers is avoided because of the likelihood of embedded metal.  

While other mills have large circular saws with replaceable teeth. A few even have top and bottom saws and can handle really giant size logs without the waste too small a mill will have. 

Volume is next.  High volume mills tend to be very inflexible only taking certain size and types of logs. 

Full time Pallet mills tend to be better than small part time woodmizer type operations. Or giant production sawmills.  A full time mom and pop or family operation. Tends to be the most flexible and helpful.  

Likely wont find them on the internet but down some back country road.  Talk to equipment dealers, skid steer dealers, they will tell you where one or two are but some counties might have 20-15 sawmills who buy from other dealers or auctions etc.  finding them is best done at the sawmill, “ who else besides you saws lumber”? 

  

You can talk to the mill and they can give you an idea of who to call but the end goal is you personally picking someone to work your property, which is should be because thats the person onsite. Calling the mill and having them assign a logger to you is like calling up Home Depot and taking however they send out, sure you can....but why would you?

Im from a logging town, its something ive dealt with a lot, you really really want to pick your logging outfit because the wrong one is a disaster

I suspect we are talking different sort of logging. Here in the Midwest and some parts of the east it’s all selective logging.  Mature trees are pulled from forests without damaging the younger trees rather than clear cutting I see done so often out west. 

But yes some logging outfits clearly aren’t up to the task.  That’s why I suggest working with a sawmill. Since selective harvesting is the norm, anyone who engages in poor practices  doesn’t get called back. Some woodlots have been harvested for generations by the same  sawmill because the owners know which sawmills can be trusted to send out the good loggers. 

Several of the properties we've looked at have had their timber 'harvested'. They look like a wasteland. 

Ideally I'd like our result to look like a meadow sprinkled with nice mature trees.  It will be a lot of work to get to that state, and I'd love to find a way to do it in a single season.

frenchyd said:

Antihero said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to Antihero :

Logging companies are sort of the middle men. They have to get the trees, saw them into commercial sizes. And then sell the wood to a sawmill. 

You don’t want a logging company, you want to work with a sawmill. The right size and type of Sawmill. 

Not all sawmills have a market for the variety of wood especially small sized plots.   Pallet mills, railroad tie mills can take just about any sort of wood as long as they are big enough.  They will tell the loggers where to go. 

Its kind of a matter of finding the not too big, not to small but just right sized sawmill. It also helps a lot if you know what you are talking about.  What kind and size are the majority of trees? 

Small mills may specialize in one or two wood species. For example red oak and Ash.  Nothing bigger than 24 inches because it won’t fit on their woodmizer or Alaska.  Plus land near urban centers is avoided because of the likelihood of embedded metal.  

While other mills have large circular saws with replaceable teeth. A few even have top and bottom saws and can handle really giant size logs without the waste too small a mill will have. 

Volume is next.  High volume mills tend to be very inflexible only taking certain size and types of logs. 

Full time Pallet mills tend to be better than small part time woodmizer type operations. Or giant production sawmills.  A full time mom and pop or family operation. Tends to be the most flexible and helpful.  

Likely wont find them on the internet but down some back country road.  Talk to equipment dealers, skid steer dealers, they will tell you where one or two are but some counties might have 20-15 sawmills who buy from other dealers or auctions etc.  finding them is best done at the sawmill, “ who else besides you saws lumber”? 

  

You can talk to the mill and they can give you an idea of who to call but the end goal is you personally picking someone to work your property, which is should be because thats the person onsite. Calling the mill and having them assign a logger to you is like calling up Home Depot and taking however they send out, sure you can....but why would you?

Im from a logging town, its something ive dealt with a lot, you really really want to pick your logging outfit because the wrong one is a disaster

I suspect we are talking different sort of logging. Here in the Midwest and some parts of the east it’s all selective logging.  Mature trees are pulled from forests without damaging the younger trees rather than clear cutting I see done so often out west. 

But yes some logging outfits clearly aren’t up to the task.  That’s why I suggest working with a sawmill. Since selective harvesting is the norm, anyone who engages in poor practices  doesn’t get called back. Some woodlots have been harvested for generations by the same  sawmill because the owners know which sawmills can be trusted to send out the good loggers. 

Selective logging is done as well as mass clearing out west

nderwater said:

Several of the properties we've looked at have had their timber 'harvested'. They look like a wasteland. 

Ideally I'd like our result to look like a meadow sprinkled with nice mature trees.  It will be a lot of work to get to that state, and I'd love to find a way to do it in a single season.

If thats what you want, you want a chainsaw and lots of time. Logging operations arent a guy with chainsaw much anymore, the skidder alone will do a whole lotta damage but logging isnt low impact at all. You could have that goal easily in time though, one season would be rough.

Theres a guy around here that uses mules for low impact logging but it isnt fast at all. End result is still trails where logs are skidded out to though

nderwater said:

Ideally I'd like our result to look like a meadow sprinkled with nice mature trees.  It will be a lot of work to get to that state, and I'd love to find a way to do it in a single season.

What's the plan for routine maintenance? If you want to keep it like a "meadow sprinkled with nice mature trees", you're going to have to mow it pretty often. That's going to take a whole bunch of time with 5-10 acres sprinkled with trees and other obstacles. For reference, I've got 17 or 18 mature trees that I mow around on my 3 mostly flat acres. With a large, commercial ZTR mower I spend about 2 hours/week on yard work. With more trees or more acreage that time could grow very quickly. I don't care how much you like yardwork, mowing 5+ hours/week would suck for anybody with a job and normal obligations.

For that reason, most people with that amount of land tend to clear out an acre or two around the house that gets mowed and treated like a lawn, and the rest is just left wild. That would greatly reduce your time commitment, both in the clearing phase and the routine weekly maintenance.

I'd clear your homesite and drive first. A pro could make quick work of that and you wouldn't have to buy any big equipment that you'd never use again. Then, you can focus on the light clearing a bit at a time as you want, starting from the house and working your way out until you've had enough. This can be done with a smaller tractor (that you'll want anyway) and chainsaws.

nderwater said:

Several of the properties we've looked at have had their timber 'harvested'. They look like a wasteland. 

Ideally I'd like our result to look like a meadow sprinkled with nice mature trees.  It will be a lot of work to get to that state, and I'd love to find a way to do it in a single season.

Depending on where you’re looking, I know a couple guys. I was pretty pleased with the dude we hired. I just told him “Do what you’d do if it was your property.” He removed a TON (actually, multiple tons, I’m guessing,) of “scrub” and dead/dying trees, but nothing else.