Quake in Japan

aircooled wrote: Yes, but functionally they are "steel sheds". They really are for no purpose other then to keep the weather out, just like a shed. The pools are a concern, but fortunately they fuel there is already degraded (spent, but still hot of course), and they should be pretty easy to fill, being in the open to the outside now. So the blown up "sheds" is actually a good thing. (glass half full kind of thing) ... waiting for deadly cloud to come over Friday... why do I have the feeling it will contain about the same amount of radiation you get by being at the beach for a day...

It seems that the pools aren't "pretty easy to fill" because workers can't get close enough because of high radiation levels. Hence the failed attempts are airdropping water and the limited success of the water cannons. Though the fuel is spent it's not at all safe. I imagine it's particularly radioactive as a matter of fact. Degraded fuel doesn't mean safe fuel. Correct? If it gets hot enough, I understand that the Zircaloy fuel casings will oxidize/burn/explode. There's plenty that can still go wrong.

Latest news from NHK

I've seen the buildings referred to as secondary containment. I assume that in addition to keeping weather out they also contain minor pressure releases during situations less dramatic than we're seeing now.

I haven't read anything particularly alarmist about short-term radiation levels for the west coast. I think if the situation in Japan continues to deteriorate there's valid reason to be aware/concerned/prepared.

And then there is this....

Popping potassium iodide already? Really bad idea

aircooled wrote: ... why do I have the feeling it will contain about the same amount of radiation you get by being at the beach for a day...

I am surprised you do not already know the answer to that- obviously you get that feeling because you are omniscient.

Seems like it continues to get worse.

"[9:47 p.m. ET Thursday, 10:47 a.m. Friday in Tokyo] A radiation reading of 20 millisieverts per hour has been recorded at a key annex building at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant – the highest yet recorded there – an official from the Tokyo Electric Power Company said Friday morning. In comparison, a typical chest X-ray exposes a person to about .02 millisieverts of radiation. A typical dose of background radiation in developed countries is about 3 millisieverts over an entire year."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367684/Nuclear-plant-chief-weeps-Japanese-finally-admit-radiation-leak-kill-people.html

The electricians connecting that power line must have balls that clank when they walk. All of those workers are international, world hero's.

^Yeah, it's pretty damn noble to know that you are signing your own death certificate in an effort to protect everyone else.

I finally heard about my co-workers. One was on site, at one of the shut down units and the other two were at a different site. All escaped fine, and hopefully will be home early next week. I won't bother posting some of what they reported, the GRM expert will repudiate it anyways.

I'm glad to hear all is well. I'm interested in hearing a bit more of what they reported.

minimac wrote: I finally heard about my co-workers. One was on site, at one of the shut down units and the other two were at a different site. All escaped fine, and hopefully will be home early next week. I won't bother posting some of what they reported, the GRM expert will repudiate it anyways.

Come on. Don't be shy!

Glad your coworkers are all ok.

minimac wrote: I won't bother posting some of what they reported, the GRM expert will repudiate it anyways.

I'm no expert on human behavior but I say you're wrong.

The reactor vessel is not a one piece unit, and there are dozens of large bore nozzles(pipes) coming off of it. These are controlled by M.O.V.s (motor operated valves). Some are open, some are closed, but all have to be closed in a major event.No power= valve doesn't close. No back up power=valve doesn't close. Minimal battery power= valves get closed manually. These are not simple hand wheels and require well over one hundred turns. I personally have done one that was over 400 complete turns, open to close. There is also, by procedure, an order in which they get closed. And as anyone with the lest bit of knowledge knows, nuclear is a procedure driven industry. It has to be. How many of these valves do you think got closed?While that little animation posted earlier was a good primer, it was a very basic oversimplification.The fact that a "pipe broke" wasn't a simple matter-it was a pressure boundary and just as important as the vessel itself.I'm very aware of the experiments that are run in Idaho. Under a controlled environment, in a lab, doesn't always relate well to the real world. A reactor vessel and head are over engineered, but real world experience has shown that over time, they become seriously degraded due to many factors, not the least of which is Boron. It is necessary for the (water) chemistry to help control the reactions.Look up the reactor head situation at Davis-Besse to learn more. I was on that shutdown when it was discovered.Six inches of solid stainless almost completely gone. How much pressure would that head hold? As another note, the fuel cladding is not as tough(protective) as a certain automotive engineer would lead you to believe.There are many documented cases of tiny bits of "stuff" ,i.e. a single strand from a wire brush, that find their way into the reactor water that became lodged in the fuel bundles and cause leaks in the rods. A single 1/4" piece of wire wore a hole in a fuel rod.Not once, not twice, but numerous times and at almost every plant. The problem of fuel leakage is a huge one. As far as "spent fuel"- there remains anywhere from 30% to 50% in a spent rod. Still pretty potent stuff. That's why the blowing up of the containment building is bad The plants in the US use Rem(R) as our units of dose. They use Sievert(sv). One r= .01sv. There are 1000 millirem(mr) in 1 r. Plants in the U.S. have administrative annual dose limits of 2000mr. These cannot be exceeded without special circumstance and permission.These are the limits for people that work in the industry. So when it was reported that .01sv was measured, that is the equivalent to 1000millrem per hour. In two hours you would receive the annual maximum allowed dose for a nuclear worker. Look at the numbers being reported and do the math. I will say that the "official" numbers being released are grossly understated-not my words, but from someone that was there and that cesium showed up in some drinking water.

The sad bit about the whole nuclear thing is that It is that it is just a bit of a distraction. The tsunami was/will be a much larger tragedy in terms of lives lost.

Indeed. Not to make light of a horrendous situation but did you see the pictures of the houses that were floating MILES out to sea? They looked almost intact!

minimac wrote: Indeed. Not to make light of a horrendous situation but did you see the pictures of the houses that were floating MILES out to sea? they looked almost intact!

no poop.

The Japanese build to resist 6 and up earthquakes. Brick E36 M3house indeed!

No matter what, the Japanese are screwed. I am saddened by the relatively smaller level of donations aid organizations are receiving compared to Katrina or Haiti. What I have heard on the news is that people feel that Japan is a much more wealthy country so they don't need the help. BullE36 M3.

thats the attitude i see from mostly liberal punditry sites, like huffington post comments section. (the editors themselves aren't so scathing).

and the houses, if you look at the flattened ones, they were flattened by water, usually not the quake. Their foundation and supports are usually intact if you see the pics.

resurrecting this thread because of something awesome I saw in the news

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-japan-quake-scuba-20110317,0,7192950.story

Akaiwa said he was at work a few miles away when the tsunami hit, and he rushed back to find his neighborhood inundated with up to 10 feet of water. Not willing to wait until the government or any international organization did, or did not, arrive to rescue his wife of two decades — whom he had met while they were surfing in a local bay — Akaiwa got hold of some scuba gear. He then hit the water, wended his way through the debris and underwater hazards and managed to reach his house, from which he dragged his wife to safety. "The water felt very cold, dark and scary," he recalled. "I had to swim about 200 yards to her, which was quite difficult with all the floating wreckage." With his mother still unaccounted for several days later, Akaiwa stewed with frustration as he watched the water recede by only a foot or two. He repeatedly searched for her at City Hall and nearby evacuation centers. Finally, on Tuesday, he waded through neck-deep water, searching the neighborhood where she'd last been seen. He found her, he said, on the second floor of a flooded house where she'd been waiting for help for four days.

headline: "smart dude wins"

Earthquake damaged road fixed in six days:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3489027/Japans-on-the-road-to-recovery.html

stuart in mn wrote: Earthquake damaged road fixed in six days: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3489027/Japans-on-the-road-to-recovery.html

that is cool!

One more Thing I heard on NPR this morning. (paraphrasing) Japan had over 120 offers for help in past few weeks. They have accepted less than 20. Basically Japan has said... "We're rich enough and this our responsibility, We'll take care of it. "

Definitely noble. Their response to the quake and Tsunami have been better than our response to Katrina. However, their response to the reactor thing has been umm.... at best on par with TMI... Sure are trying like hell though.

they sure are taking the help from the US tho... pretty much everyone is appreciative of them except Okinawans...

huge-O-chavez wrote: Definitely noble. Their response to the quake and Tsunami have been better than our response to Katrina. However, their response to the reactor thing has been umm.... at best on par with TMI... Sure are trying like hell though.

i'm sure the japanese will be flattered by your comparing them favorably to the hood-rats of nawlins.

AngryCorvair wrote:

huge-O-chavez wrote: Definitely noble. Their response to the quake and Tsunami have been better than our response to Katrina. However, their response to the reactor thing has been umm.... at best on par with TMI... Sure are trying like hell though.

i'm sure the japanese will be flattered by your comparing them favorably to the hood-rats of nawlins.

Totally dude. Blackwater should have shot all of em.