Religious question

HappyAndy wrote:

Fletch1 wrote: "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God" ( II Timothy 3:15-17). The extent of inspiration can be clearly seen in 2 Timothy 3:16, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” This verse tells us that God inspired all Scripture and that it is profitable to us. God inspired every word...therefore He is the author who chose ordinary men to write it down. And no, I would not waste my time listening to some science channel explaining what THEY think the Bible is.

Well spoken. Particularly about the science channel, and any other comercial/mass media/info-tainment produced by non believers. They may claim to be the work of great scholars, but 1 Co. vs 19&20 is my responce to those claims. Its worth pointing out that many refer to as "comunion" is the only thing that Jesus asked his followers to observe in rememberance of him(Luke 22:19,20). This was not coincidentily durring His final celebration of the passover, often refered to as The Last Supper, or The Lords Evening Meal. This is not exactly the same as Easter, and its connection to the passover is important. I do not celebrate Easter, IMO its not suported by the Bible, and much of the symbolism connected to it comes from pagan traditions. I do observe The Lords Evening Meal. I would like thank every one who has responded to this thread using scriptures to support their statements (as opposed to citing tradition or dogma). Fletch1 cited 2Tim 3:15-17, "Gods word is inspired", and it is; its what Jesus used to teach the humble and honest & rebuke the wicked and corupt. As any Bible reader knows, no one opposed Jesus more than the religious leaders of his day, and the point of contention usually broke down to religious tradition vs scripture (Mark 7:13 Mt 15:3), Jesus relied on the scripures and quoted them constantly. I mean no disrespect to those sharing their beliefs with respect to church traditions, I just want to draw attention to the importance of personally knowing and using Gods Word, not just what other people tell you Gods Word says. I suspect that if Jesus were to return to earth today, contemprary christian church leaders would cling to their traditions just as stubornly as the jewish leaders of the first century. What side would you want to be found on?(Mt 7:21,22) PS. Sorry if this comes across as thread jacking, I hope that the writer of the OP finds at least some of this relevant and informative. And I apologize for poor spelling too, this was written on a borrowed smart phone & I didn't know how to spell check on it.

Fixed your formatting

In reply to mtn:thanks, that was a lot of thought about to go to waste.

Oh boy.

In reply to curtis73:

And that's where faith comes in.
I would suggest reading Hebrews Chapter 11. It's good.

Thanks HappyAndy, you had some good points. Whenever people talk to me about God/Bible etc, I just point them to the Scripture. I believe in it 100%, without a shadow of doubt. I leave my opinions out of it because my opinion does not matter. I'm not God, just a sinner saved by grace.

Fletch1 wrote: I just point them to the Scripture. I'm just a sinner saved by grace.

me 2

curtis73 wrote:

Fletch1 wrote: "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God" ( II Timothy 3:15-17). The extent of inspiration can be clearly seen in 2 Timothy 3:16, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” This verse tells us that God inspired all Scripture and that it is profitable to us.

.... IF you believe that the bible is the holy scripture.

Nope.

It doesn't really matter whether or not you believe the Bible is the Holy scripture. If it is, it is, regardless of what you think or believe.

If it is, God didn't really ask your opinion. I'm just saying...

tuna55 wrote:

triumph5 wrote: Interesting you ask these questions, as NOVA had an interesting program on recently, "The Bible's Buried Screts: The Old Testament and how the concept of one God emerged." I'm an athiest, but it was fascinating how and WHO wrote the bible. And did touch on the OP's question. The second one was also on PBS's "Secrets of the Dead" series (dumb name, but good quality) on the history of the English Bible, split between catholic and english church, power struggles for control of the church, and a gentleman called William Tyndale who wote the first english language bible, which was considered so controversial, single pages at a time were smuggled from europe to england. Very even handed treatment of the subject, and answered a lot of questions as to how we got so many different interpretations of the bible. It was really well done. I consider these pieces of literature, nothing more, and these two documentaries answered more questions about the origins of "The" bible and it's history to the current day than any I've seen. Really good stuff. The Secrets of the dead is available on DVD for $25, but, you may catch it on your local PBS channel, or maybe local library. As I said, I'm an athiest, but was always curious about who "wrote" the bible, nothing else was on, and these are two programs well worth seeing for insight. My 2 cents. Try PBS.org, and start from there to find these programs.

I have not seen this, but if it's anything like other similar series, please don't watch that rubbish.

WHY? And you admit you haven't seen them, and it's already rubbish. Such an open mind, you are to be applauded.

I won't speculate on "Good Friday". I don't know.

Regarding communion bread and wine- let me offer a somewhat long explanation that is really important, but most people miss. Jesus did not initiate communion as a celebration or remembrance of him. He did not initiate it at all. Jesus was celebrating the Passover with His disciples at the moment He said, "Do this in remembrance of me". The Passover feast had existed for the Jewish people for over 1400 years prior to that (and still celebrated today). Jesus was saying "celebrate the Passover in remembrance of me".

The bread (without leaven) is a reminder of the fact that they left Egypt (our past lives, our lives in slavery and bondage) in haste. Leaven is symbolic for sin (so Christ was literally saying "I am the sustenance without sin"). The Hebrews clean the leaven out of their houses to celebrate Passover, and eat unleavened bread to remember that God brought them out of their affliction and bondage.

During the Passover, the Jews drink wine 4 times. The first cup is the Cup of Sanctification (setting apart as Holy). The second cup is the Cup of the Plagues (remembering the cost to be set free).

The third cup is the interesting one. This is the very moment (Lk 22:19) when Jesus said, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me". This cup is know as the Cup of Redemption. Jesus did NOT drink this one, but told His disciples to drink from it. At the same time, He covenanted with them (and us) that He would not drink from the fruit of the vine until we are reunited with Him in the kingdom (Mt. 26: 27-29).

Jesus did not initiate some new cannibalistic tradition for people to remember Him by. He shared with them a new understanding for a specific celebration they had been utilizing for 1400 years, and explained that He was the actual redemption, He was the third cup.

The fourth cup, the Cup of the Kingdom, was not drunk by Jesus at this final Passover with His disciples. He had already been dragged off to be crucified.

So, the communion service Christians celebrate is directly based on the Passover Seder celebrated by the Jews for the last 3000 years, and the meaning was to show them that He was the redemption that they were waiting for and that when they celebrated it, they should remember him.

Not a religion expert, but many folks would consider it "Good Friday", because many folks believe that until Christ died heaven was "closed". These folks also believe that it was closed because until Christ died for our sins....they were not forgiven and no one's soul was "redeemed". A poor analogy would be a retail store that gave a money back guarantee, but did not have any place in the actual store for you to go to get your return processed. On Good Friday, the returns deptment finally opened.

As far as Communion and whether it is or is not cannabalistic(sp?)....why do you eat a meal with other folks? Do you just want some company? or do you want to share an experience with them? When you get together with family and/or friends, are you apt to remember it better/longer if food/ a meal is involved?

At the Last Supper, Jesus could not pass on anything to be "remembered by" , like a piece of jewelry, or a book...he had to pass to the apostles Himself. So, at the time of the blessing and prayers, determined by Christ, he transformed the bread and wine into himself (not doing that great of a job here, am I?) to be passed along by the apostles at a later date when they went forth and became Christ's representatives. It's symbolic...otherwise, I think the Last Supper would have culminated in Christ dismembering Himself and draining His blood into a container for all to drink from. THAT would have been cannabalistic.

It isn't like the bible dropped out of heaven one day. It was written, translated, assembled and edited by men. It didn't even exist in its current form until almost 300 years after Jesus died. And there still isn't universal agreement among the largest churches about which books belong in the canon. And scholars are still coming out with better translations of the oldest documents which proves the previous versions weren't infallible. Not to mention that Jesus and his apostles spoke Aramaic but we are working from Greek transcripts. So we don't even have a direct transcript of the original words.

In reply to triumph5:

Dude, you didn't read anything I actually wrote. I have seen others that sound awfully familiar and they were rubbish, get it?

DILYSI Dave wrote:

Iron Balls McGinty wrote: Some people here remind me of Ned Flanders on the Simpsons - I've done everything the Bible says; even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!

Dunno if you noticed, but a reasonable discussion among adults was going on.

Iron Balls here makes more sense than most of this thread. His point is no less valid because he quoted a cartoon (also written by men).

Okay, before this descends to chaos, let me just put this out there:

Our feelings on the truthiness of Christianity are not relevant to the conversation at hand.

Those that believe, believe. Those that don't, don't. It's a contradiction between the demands of faith and the demands of empirical evidence, and each group feels the other is just denying the obvious reality to hold the belief that they do.

Iron Balls McGinty wrote: In reply to ReverendDexter: LOTS of people are devout Christians but don't believe the bible is inerrant and infallible. LOTS of people. .

That would actually be impossible. Then they are devouted to something they don't believe in

SVreX wrote:

curtis73 wrote:

Fletch1 wrote: "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God" ( II Timothy 3:15-17). The extent of inspiration can be clearly seen in 2 Timothy 3:16, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” This verse tells us that God inspired all Scripture and that it is profitable to us.

.... IF you believe that the bible is the holy scripture.

Nope. It doesn't really matter whether or not you believe the Bible is the Holy scripture. If it is, it is, regardless of what you think or believe. If it is, God didn't really ask your opinion. I'm just saying...

I wasn't commenting on the content of the bible, I was simply pointing out that Fletch made a comment as fact based on the bible. I wasn't saying that the bible was incorrect, I was merely stating that his comment was only true if you believe that the bible IS correct.

I have mounds of faith. Tons of faith. More faith now that I left organized religion. That was also the origin of my post on page 1 - that if we (as humans) could step down from the righteous viewpoint and stop talking about "that's where faith comes in" we would have an easier time comparing and contrasting in an adult way.

I always felt that there are too many polarizations on such tiny topics while huge elephants go un-noticed in the middle of the room. I was talking with a lady at the doctor's office this morning. She was one of the speak-in-tongues type and I'm a sleep-in-on-sunday type. Regardless of the fact that I have a very deep faith, I was suddenly something from satan's loins and she wouldn't talk to me. Nevermind that we had just spent almost an hour discussing the bible, god's greatness, and the religious ramifications of the Easter season. She totally ignored the elephant and instead focused on the fact that I don't flail and wail every sunday morning like she does.

tuna55 wrote: In reply to triumph5: Dude, you didn't read anything I actually wrote. I have seen others that sound awfully familiar and they were rubbish, get it?

You seem very open-minded and enlightened.

In reply to Iron Balls McGinty:

My post was due to this thread starting to taste of "Christian vs Atheist". I was just trying to head that off at the pass, as it were.

Fletch1 wrote:

Iron Balls McGinty wrote: In reply to ReverendDexter: LOTS of people are devout Christians but don't believe the bible is inerrant and infallible. LOTS of people. .

That would actually be impossible. Then they are devouted to something they don't believe in

So you're saying that Christianity can't exist without fundamentalist literal interpretations?

ReverendDexter wrote: In reply to Iron Balls McGinty: My post was due to this thread starting to taste of "Christian vs Atheist". I was just trying to head that off at the pass, as it were.

Yeah... I ducked out because I started feeling the "tug." Then I came back to clarify a post and got sucked in again.

Curses.

curtis73 wrote: So you're saying that Christianity can't exist without fundamentalist literal interpretations?

If you're a fundamentalist Christian, sure.

curtis73 wrote:

ReverendDexter wrote: In reply to Iron Balls McGinty: My post was due to this thread starting to taste of "Christian vs Atheist". I was just trying to head that off at the pass, as it were.

Yeah... I ducked out because I started feeling the "tug." Then I came back to clarify a post and got sucked in again. Curses.

Yeah, I actually love the argument, but it never gets anywhere other than Youraflamingidiotville and Berkeleyyouandthehorseyourodeinonburg.

In reply to curtis73:

Curtis, that was very well stated.

Thanks to all of you for not sending this thread down the trail I expected.

Toyman01 wrote: Thanks to all of you for not sending this thread down the trail I expected.

It's worth saying twice. Dialogue > floundering.

Mmmm.... Flounder

But on a more serious note, I think we have pretty much answered the original question with dignity. Kudos to us