RIP Daylight Savings Time

z31maniac said:

Is that new? Teenagers starting school at 7am? I was in high school '96-00. School started at 7:55am and ended at 2:50am. 

Not around here. I was in high school from 84-88, and we started at 7:10. My wife teaches at another local high school, and they start at 7:20.

An extra hour of daylight in the evening results in higher rates of disease, poorer overall health, and reduced income per capita. People in the western most edges of timezones suffer the most.

“Individuals on the late sunset side of a time zone boundary are more likely to be sleep deprived, more likely to sleep less than 6 hours, and less likely to sleep at least 8 hours. The effects are larger among individuals with early working schedules and among individuals with children of school age.”

Time changes are stupid no matter what, but if we're going to settle on a One True Time Standard, I'd prefer Standard Time over DST by a long shot.

- Signed a person on the Western edge of a timezone with early work schedule and small kid

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:

dean1484 said:

VolvoHeretic said:

Up here in the great north, just south of Canada, DST is great in the summer, twilight past 10 pm and daylight around 6:30 am. In the winter though, with around 8 hours of daylight and with sunrise occurring after 8:00 am and sunset after 4:30 pm, not good. It's dangerous for all of the school kids that have to walk to school in the dark, what with all of the insane drivers out there.

Push school hours back an hour? 

This. I've never understood why we make teenagers (who need the most sleep of anyone) start school at 7am.

I'm also strongly pro-DST. I hate winter enough, but when it gets dark at 5pm, that just makes it worse.

Our school district starts elementary school first and high school last.  It's awesome.

RevRico said:

In reply to DrBoost :

Because children were waiting for the bus in the dark, and parents groups thought it was dangerous. At least that's what I've gathered from old newspapers, so I imagine it will face the same challenge because parents seem to be much more overprotective these days. 

I find that to be a stretch of an excuse, my entire high school career was waiting for the bus in the dark at 630am. 

I hear ya on the over protective parents these days. I'd maybe even say sissified parents. I see parents bringing their kids to the bus stop in cars and waiting with heat / A/C running to keep them comfy. The kids jumps out of the Escalade in jeans and a short (no coat) in January when it's 5F outside. That's why you're idling your car, to keep your kid warm when he/she should have actually dressed for the cold? Really? I walked to the bus stop, waited there freezing, and got on a warm bus and warmed up. 
I really hope we can just leave time alone. I mean, we all saw what happened when Marty and Doc messed with the space/time continuum.  

My kids were getting up at 6 am for a 7:10 start time in elementary. That's a bit tough, especially when we're trying to get them to bed at 9 or 9:30 pm and the sun is still up and people are mowing lawns!
 

Someone mentioned they have parents (?) in MI that are in central time zone. I had to look at the time zone map, I didn't think any of Michigan was in central. Learn (or re-learn?) something new every day. Look at the time zones. They are totally stupid. There are places there if you go north or south, you're changing time zones!  
Did you know Nepal is GMT + 5 hours and.......45 minutes LOL???

Backing out of this rabbit hole. I have work to do.  

School starts (at least did when i was a kid, and when my kids were in school) at 8:30 to 9:00 here in the civilized north.  What freakish misunderstanding of life has kids in school at 7am? I'd have to have been on the bus at 5:30 if that was the case.

And time change sucks, because all my tv programs that come from less enlightened areas of the world change their start time twice a year.

All Canadians know about the 30 minute time zone for Newfoundland. The CBC, for example, would announce program times with "...and 7:30 in Newfoundland".

Could be worse, though. Have you met Australia?

Note that Eucla has a population of a few dozen.

Now to lobby for 24 hour time.

In reply to DrBoost :

If there is Central Time in Michigan (I'm not aware) then it must be in that other Michigan, western UP. 

I've never been west of Marquette.  It must be odd to be that far away from the world that is your state capital and even farther from SW Michigan that really makes up the bulk of the state's population inside that I-75/ US23 triangle. 

It really is 3 states in one.  Mega Metro Detroit, everything else-lower, everything else-upper. 

AZ just chillin over here. 

I would say that one of the more annoying things about having permanent standard time is that during the summer you can't capitalize on the sunlight because you're at work. 

Down in the valley, however, they like it, because during the summer you try to avoid peak sun anyways, so the earlier sunrise allows folks to get in their morning runs/walks/rides before work while its still cool, then they get the cooler temps of sunset "earlier" in the day (respective of 8-5 work schedules.)

From my reading on the subject, it's not the Daylight Savings Time (later sunset) that's a problem - it's the switching between times that's the issue.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

In reply to DrBoost :

In reply to John Welsh :

It is actually the southern counties of the UP! Ignoring the fact that having any part of Michigan or Indiana on Eastern doesn't make any sense, this seems weird that it is north-south rather than east-west for the UP time zones. But it does make sense when you consider that those southernmost counties of the UP have a lot more every day dealings with Wisconsin than they do with the rest of the UP, just because there is a lot more in Wisconsin than the rest of the UP. This is especially true for Marinette-Menominee; Marinette being the Wisconsin side and Menominee being Michigan. Many, many people live in one and work in the other, their hockey team is actually combined for the two. From Menominee, it is faster to Green Bay than it is to Escanaba. 

ProDarwin said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

 

Explanation near the bottom.
http://www.drivemelbournetoperth.com.au/time-zones-across-nullarbor.html 

John Welsh said:

In reply to DrBoost :

If there is Central Time in Michigan (I'm not aware) then it must be in that other Michigan, western UP. 

 

You are correct   South West of the Keewanau Penisula.   it's a weird squiggly line that make zero sense.

I think DST is the stoopidest thing ever.

Noon should always be when the sun is perpendicular to the longitude line associated with your time zone.  Period.  It's math.  We came up with hours, minutes, and seconds based on how quickly the earth rotates and we divided it into logical intervals of time and time zones.  berkeleying with the hands on a clock doesn't change the rotation of the earth.

Randomly moving the clocks around is just ridiculous.  There are benefits in some situations such as potentially reduced energy consumption based on hours that a business is open, but you can DO THAT BY CHANGING YOUR BUSINESS HOURS.  You don't need to cheat the entire construct of geometric time with clock lies.

Noon is noon.  Midnight is midnight.  2:12 is 2:12.

DST is like taking a 300 hp engine, stuffing a block under the accelerator, and claiming you now have a 250hp engine.  No.  You don't.  You pulled a trick.  You didn't change the operating parameters of the engine components, you just aren't using its full potential.

There are millions of ways you can accomplish the same thing without lying about what time your clock thinks it is.

Give me DST or give me...

Well, not quite that bad but if my house reps vote against it there is a good chance I'll vote against them. 

Grtechguy said:

John Welsh said:

In reply to DrBoost :

If there is Central Time in Michigan (I'm not aware) then it must be in that other Michigan, western UP. 

 

You are correct   South West of the Keewanau Penisula.   it's a weird squiggly line that make zero sense.

That looks like the sort of exception that is 100% due to trade. The portions that are up against the lake will be trading with Eastern time people, the portion that's connected to WI is doing trade with Central time.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

We came up with hours, minutes, and seconds based on how quickly the earth rotates and we divided it into logical intervals of time and time zones.  berkeleying with the hands on a clock doesn't change the rotation of the earth.

...DST is like taking a 300 hp engine, stuffing a block under the accelerator, and claiming you now have a 250hp engine.  No.  You don't.  You pulled a trick.  You didn't change the operating parameters of the engine components, you just aren't using its full potential.

First off, 24 hours divided by 60 minutes divided by 60 seconds might be math but it sure isn't logical :)

As for your power example, may I introduce the MINI One? that's exactly what it was, a Cooper with a throttle plate that didn't open all the way.

I can graph the output from our solar vs time of day. It used to be at noon. Now it's at 1 pm...

Whatever puts the extra daylight at the end of the day where I can use it gets my vote. Extra light in the morning doesn't help me.

Maybe move the clocks 30 minutes to split the difference then leave it alone?

My hi school in the early 90's started at 7am. Get the older kids up early to get the accustomed to it. Most jobs start at 7or8, not 930.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Change business hours?! *Gasp!* That's blasphemy, business hours are sacrosanct. Just change the meaning of time itself, ruffles less feathers. /s

But now for something serious. Want more daylight when you get home? Rather than arbitrarily changing time around, ask your boss to change your schedule. Or join a union pushing for those hours. Or change jobs to one that offers hours that suit you. 

Is the easiest answer here really just to go around moving clocks for the entire population whenever we feel like it?

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I, with a light heart and technical thoughts, challenge your concept or hypothesis that the high point of the sun should be fixed at 12:00PM. Nothing in my life revolves around the sun position. Maybe if I was in theater or some type of camera image capturing job it becomes a big factor, or ran an observatory. 

I think it would be just fine to meet for lunch at 5pm USAT (USA TIME) or have a zoom call at 3AM USAT without having to figure out every invitee's time zones. 

USAT would be defined as starting at 9am at the time that NASA confirms sunrise occurs for the washington monument in DC (or maybe a more stable geological feature of the USA) at the spring equinox of 2023 and from then on it is the same time anywhere in the USA. Hawaii is at 9am the same as Maine (unless Guam, Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands get included then they are the most separated points)

Yes it will be uncomfortable but noon does not have to equal a clock time of 12:00pm. Noon can be noon for you when the sun is highest just like saying sunset now has no bearing on clock time. Sunsets' clock times vary day to day and we have no issue with using that word separate from a clock time. 

Regarding the current actual legislation:

I wish we would keep Standard time and discard Daylight savings time but what I have read was that the lobbies for the major pro team sports, fitness gyms, after school sports related entities, and primarily golf courses keep pushing the idea that more sun after work hours equals more profit. So sticking to the daylight savings time hours is better for them. Which I don't buy, but that is what the Michigan state legislature debate went on about when discussing the state law regarding the end of daylight savings time.  

May USA TIME last forever, until Earth time that is. I stand down and release the podium. 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

I think DST is the stoopidest thing ever.

Noon should always be when the sun is perpendicular to the longitude line associated with your time zone.  Period.  It's math.  We came up with hours, minutes, and seconds based on how quickly the earth rotates and we divided it into logical intervals of time and time zones.  berkeleying with the hands on a clock doesn't change the rotation of the earth.

This has been my view.  Make Noon roughly equivalent to Solar Noon (+/- 30min because timezones).  Then society can set its hours accordingly.

I'm now ~1:30 mins off from Solar Noon.  The western edge of the eastern timezone is over 2 hours offset.  Solar Noon in places of the UP of Michigan is ~2:05pm

I've always wondered who the powerful DST lobby was that kept Congress from repealing it.

Error404 said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

But now for something serious. Want more daylight when you get home? Rather than arbitrarily changing time around, ask your boss to change your schedule. Or join a union pushing for those hours. Or change jobs to one that offers hours that suit you.

If only it was that easy, school/day care has or will have more effect on my schedule then anything else.

I am all for DST year round. More time for mountain biking, walks, hikes, etc in the evening since I live down south where there is a chance of pleasant weather during the "standard" time of year.

I don't understand why anyone would want standard time year round.