Rollin' in the Volt

HiTempguy wrote:

NGTD wrote: Do that across NA and you are going to need a whole pile of new wells and pipelines - look at the protests going on in Washinton now. They would rather have millions of tanker trucks on the road rather than an infinitely safer pipeline.

Like I said, politicos and nimby's need to pull their heads out of their asses. I'm not suggesting a COMPLETE swap over to it, that would be very short sighted, but it is a much cleaner alternative form of energy while we wait for renewable resources to become viable.

Yes as a bridge fuel NG is quite good and a hell of a lot cleaner and safer.

NGTD wrote: Yes as a bridge fuel NG is quite good and a hell of a lot cleaner and safer.

And it will make me rich if more people buy it.

what a conundrum. Be more fuel efficient, pay less taxes.

Pay less taxes, raise less revenue.

Raise less revenue, keep spending like you have increasing revenue.

Raise taxes on the more efficient behavior.

It's not just gas taxes. Here is a quote taken from the Energy Star website:

"In 1992 the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) introduced ENERGY STAR as a voluntary labeling program designed to identify and promote energy-efficient products to reduce greenhouse gas emissions."

They claim to have 'saved' us about $18 Billion in just the year 2010.

Here is a chart of greenhouse gas emissions:

So, since the advent of Energy Star ratings with the stated goal of reducing greenhouse gas emissions our emissions have gone up by more than 900 teragrams of carbon dioxide equivalent. good job. Greater efficiency leading to less usage is a myth that has no basis in fact. Make it more efficient and cheaper to use, it will get used more.

i dunno about your conclusion having two points.

certainly cheaper increases use almost irrespective of all else, but one could say that knowing something will become cheaper that making it more efficient is a pre-emptive strike to control the effects of increased use.

There is hope for the grid. For example, Oregon's last coal plant will be shutting down in 2020:

http://www.oregonlive.com/environment/index.ssf/2011/07/pge_settles_lawsuit_over_emiss.html

Sure, it's a long way off, but we're headed in the right direction. With our hydro, wind, solar, etc. we have the ability to generate renewable energy...it just takes time. We can't avoid forward progress because it doesn't make sense with current realities, in my opinion. Rather, we need to acknowledge there is a better way and continuously work in that direction. Sure, your power bill or taxes or whatever will cost more for the next decade or so...but I bet in 50 years society will be a hell of a lot better off because of our efforts.

Constantly working towards something better will inevitably make things better, whether you're talking about the grid, your waistline, or your racecar. Change rarely comes easy, but that doesn't mean it should be avoided.

Bryce

Never mind, I was going on a rant about wind and solar, but to the kind of people who insist they are good things the opinion of someone who actually runs the grid for a living will mean nothing.

oldopelguy wrote: Never mind, I was going on a rant about wind and solar, but to the kind of people who insist they are good things the opinion of someone who actually runs the grid for a living will mean nothing.

Wow, running the grid must be an extremely tiring job, that's a lot of running! Really, your comment feels very, "I created the internet"-ish.

Bryce

ok tell me if i'm wrong here, but I ran the following calculation for cost of running an electric car after watching the TG episode (dangerous place to start anything involving actual math) on the leaf vs. other electric car we can't buy here. Forgetting range woes and eco concerns, they say the battery pack on the leaf is probobly 7000 british pounds to replace. Thats $11,456.90 according to the internetz, over what they say is the maximum 10 year life of the battery (not sure I trust that fact) makes it $1,145.69/yr. That buys 327.36 gallons assuming $3.50/gal (not accurate, but seems to fall between generic and big name costs for regular close to me. I could be wrong there, too, because my cars take premium so I really don't know what it costs exactly). Also assuming $1 per charge and 100 miles for that over a 12,000 miles year comes to $120 for power, which buys an additional 34.29 gallons. My wife's car gets somehwere's about 25mpg's which would mean that fuel (361.65 gallons) would take it 9,041.25 miles for the cost of the electric car's 12,000 miles, which is quite a savings.

I'm of course removing the maintainence costs (because I don't know them) and assuming battery technology (and costs) will remain the same (which they wont), and that gas and electricity will stay similarly priced (which they also wont). Other than those enourmous flaws of logic (including listening to Jeremy Clarkson) where else did I screw that up?

The cost of the car alone puts me right out of the buyers market for a leaf or volt or tesla, but as a rotary owner I'm already willing to pay extra money per mile for reasons that I call 'fun' but others believe to be insanity.

BTW you can obviously tell I'm bored out of my mind sitting in my apartment during this storm...

you're missing a key factor. Battery technology is improving.

To get to THIS point, GM basically funded a battery tech revolution by de-facto. The battery, charging, and thermal control tech available now did not exist in the same capacity 10 years ago.

In another 5 years, they're thinking they'll have another 20~30 miles per charge on the volt, so when the battery lease is up, the NEW battery tech will be installed, not the same old one. Thats an increase beyond %50 in terms of capacity.

So the figures you use are more of a snapshot & don't reflect the overal panorama

Rufledt wrote: and assuming battery technology (and costs) will remain the same (which they wont),

This right here. Even if you do have to replace your batteries in ten years (which, by some accounts, you may not), you'll likely be replacing them with highly superior and vastly less expensive equipment.

jg

JG Pasterjak wrote:

Rufledt wrote: and assuming battery technology (and costs) will remain the same (which they wont),

This right here. Even if you do have to replace your batteries in ten years (which, by some accounts, you may not), you'll likely be replacing them with highly superior and vastly less expensive equipment. jg

...with dollars worth significantly less.

So, we're gonna get much better batteries for much less to put into a 10 year old vehicle with (perhaps) 150,000 miles on it? I don't think it will play out that way. I think the cost will be prohibitive and will accelerate the trip to the metal (or plastic) recycler for the entire vehicle.

People who love them will buy new. DIY folks won't want the big expense.

JG, your defense of this vehicle is admirable. You have helped me open my mind. But you've got to admit there is some hocus pocus when it comes down to the real world life cycle numbers.

I like it because it's a path to "something else." Is it perfect? Far from it. It's got limited appeal to a narrower audience than most mass-market vehicles, but I also see it as something that's considerably better than most of the early shots at Hybrids. I see steady progress in the technology, and I've got to support that.

It just rubs me a bit that so many folks go out of their way to find reasons to hate anything that isn't straight internal combustion running on dino juice. I have no issue with logical gripes about an imperfect vehicle, but so much of what you hear is either hyperbolic or just straight up contrarian.

The Volt intrigues me enough that we've done the math on it a a personal vehicle. My wife is slap in the middle of the driver profile that this vehicle would be perfect for. With a Volt, she'd have to buy gas about 4-6 times per year based on her average driving. That's awful intriguing.

And this post got me thinking that those early Priuses are reaching their first decade of life. Wikipedia says this about that:

"As the Prius reached ten years of being available in the U.S. market, in February 2011 Consumer Reports decided to look at the lifetime of the Prius battery and the cost to replace it. The magazine tested a 2002 Toyota Prius with over 200,000 miles on it, and compared the results to the nearly identical 2001 Prius with 2,000 miles tested by Consumer Reports 10 years before. The comparison showed little difference in performance when tested for fuel economy and acceleration. Overall fuel economy of the 2001 model was 40.6 miles per US gallon (5.79 L/100 km; 48.8 mpg-imp) while the 2002 Prius with high mileage delivered 40.4 miles per US gallon (5.82 L/100 km; 48.5 mpg-imp). The magazine concluded that the effectiveness of the battery has not degraded over the long run.[72] "

Not sure what their test methodology was, or how typical those results are, but that's interesting information.

What I REALLY want are some true "alternative" fuels. Give me a choice between electric, gas, diesel, bio, hydrogen, wind, solar, tidal, whatever. People can choose what technology suits them best, and competition will drive the price of all of them down.

jg

I saw my first Volt a few days ago. it was going 45 on a 65mph freeway up a hill.

So I ask you Volt owners. Can the volt maintain the speed limit after the battery has been depleted, up a 3% grade?

Rocco R16V wrote: I saw my first Volt a few days ago. it was going 45 on a 65mph freeway up a hill. So I ask you Volt owners. Can the volt maintain the speed limit after the battery has been depleted, up a 3% grade?

No, at that point the Volt was traveling powered solely by smug, which allows one to travel only as far away from the speed limit as possible, depending upon the vehicle.

(As a side-note, this post comes from someone who is genuinely intrigued by the Volt.)

Rocco R16V wrote: I saw my first Volt a few days ago. it was going 45 on a 65mph freeway up a hill. So I ask you Volt owners. Can the volt maintain the speed limit after the battery has been depleted, up a 3% grade?

.. might be the same phenomenon as occurring w/ Prius drivers @ 45 mph on a level grade in a 55 zone

yes i realized it could have been operator error.

one time i had a prius(pronounced pious the r is silent ) blow by me @90mph, a few miles up the road on a long 6% grade he was doing ~50mph. judging from the earlier speed i figured he ran out of battery and that was all the speed he could muster. i cant imagine owning a car that couldnt maintain 65mph under any circumstances. I would like to know if the volt is any better in this aspect.

I think the Volt technology is the only way to build a hybrid. the prius is just dumb by comparison.

Acceleration is no issue whatsoever in the Volt, either under battery power or using the conventional engine. I maintained speeds of 110-120 km for over 50 kms under battery power alone– most hybrid vehicles I've brought home were only able to run on battery alone up to 55 km – then the gas engine would kick in. An 800 km road trip used 5.7L/100 km – perhaps that doesn't quite equal Prius levels of economy, but that was carrying four passengers comfortably and actually providing some degree of fun driving character. I agree with JG – I see the Volt as a viable alternative for some people, and look forward to seeing further choices down the road.

I like the idea of the Volt, just the price tag has me scared away for the time being. I drive about 11 miles each way to work every day. It would be nice to barely ever have to add gas and I have cheap electric rates. I've yet to see on in the flesh - my guess is that even if I wanted to buy one it would be months before I could have one.

I <3 JG.

Rocco R16V wrote: yes i realized it could have been operator error. one time i had a prius(pronounced pious the r is silent ) blow by me @90mph, a few miles up the road on a long 6% grade he was doing ~50mph. judging from the earlier speed i figured he ran out of battery and that was all the speed he could muster. i cant imagine owning a car that couldnt maintain 65mph under any circumstances. I would like to know if the volt is any better in this aspect. I think the Volt technology is the only way to build a hybrid. the prius is just dumb by comparison.

I think you missed that part of hypermiling school... Keep the speed up, and coast up a hill and let the speed bleed off. Then accelerate on the back side of the hill.

Joey

that doesn't make sense, there is no way you could achieve better fuel econ going 90mph, due to air resistance.

Want to talk about selfish people, look at hypermiliers. not only do they block traffic and cause irritation, they only move consumption from themselves to others. when they take forever to get thru a light and only two cars get thru the rest that should have made it thru spend more time idling, wasting as much gas as they saved. and those who actually have somewhere to be burn as much gas trying to pass the HM'er as the HM is saving. I truly believe that people who take hypermiling seriously actually cause a net loss in area fuel econ.

SVreX wrote: So, we're gonna get much better batteries for much less to put into a 10 year old vehicle with (perhaps) 150,000 miles on it? I don't think it will play out that way. I think the cost will be prohibitive and will accelerate the trip to the metal (or plastic) recycler for the entire vehicle. People who love them will buy new. DIY folks won't want the big expense.

What's your definition of DIY folks? I've been doing my part to show to the world that YOU CAN DO HYBRIDS. Hell, I just bought a used hybrid that's more than 10 years old...one of the first hybrids in the US that you can get out of battery warranty zone (2000 Honda Insight). It had issues with the hybrid battery when I got it and the previous owner sold it because it was going to cost too much to fix at a shop. I bought it with intentions of converting it to full EV someday, but for now I fixed it. ALL BY MYSELF! It was fast, cheap, and easy to fix given my background. Just like doing a headgasket would seem like brain surgery to some but pretty simple to us DIY type, fixing a hybrid isn't much different once you get past the basic understanding of the system.

Why can't hybrids be a DIY? In my opinion, the early days of hybrids are kind of like the early days of fuel injection. Painful at first, but eventually extremely common and well understood. The difference is that information is becoming so much easier to find that the learning curve can happen much faster. I went from EV idiot to driving my own hybrid in a year..I'm not a genius, I just thought it was interesting and put my mind to it. I think that hybrids are a great place for DIY, as OEMs will love pushing you to the latest product and hybrid buyers today want to be at the leading edge of technology so will move on relatively quick. That leaves a lot of room for those of us bottom feeders, I hope!

More to the point of the Volt, look to our past hybrid market for examples. If you buy a first gen Prius with a failed battery, power electronics, etc. there are plenty of used parts in junkyards to replace them. If you decide you don't like the older used batteries and prefer newer used cells, putting second gen Prius stuff into a first gen Prius is well documented. Battery cells are pretty easy, power electronics get a little tricky, but it's no different than any powertrain swap these days. DIY people are already doing this with all sorts of hybrids...they're not just getting sent to the scrap heap because people are afraid to work on them or they're prohibitively expensive to fix. Instead, they are sold (at a reduced price). The market dictates what the value of the vehicle is, someone does some DIY fixing, and it is back on the road...just like a gas car with a blown engine or a diesel with a bad injection pump or a van with a bad auto trans.

Bryce

I didn't say DIYers cant do a hybrid. I said if an entry level 10 year old car with 150K on it includes the need for a $1500 battery at the moment of purchase, DIYers will avoid them.

SVreX wrote: I didn't say DIYers cant do a hybrid. I said if an entry level 10 year old car with 150K on it includes the need for a $1500 battery at the moment of purchase, DIYers will avoid them.

Bryces point is that the DIY'ers will buy a used low mileage $500 pack, not a $1,500 one. It is a neat market for the DIY set.

Edit: or get a couple of "Dead" packs for free and group the good cells and have a near new performance pack for a little sweat equity.