Rolling the Red

First I'm guilty. I did it and got my first ticket in 30 years+. For doing so. 
Big 'ol School bus. Too full bladder. A 3 minute stop to relieve it but that puts me 3 minutes late to pick up my kids.  
 

Light's red, I slow down look and there is an opening I can safely get in, but beyond that is a whole long string of cars. For sure that will add a couple of minutes  The rule is the tires must come to a complete stop and I didn't do that.  Guilty. 
 

Oops!  Flashing red lights meant I was getting a ticket. Luckily the officer was reasonably quick and only added 7 minutes to my lateness.  The new computers they have check your record and spit out a printed ticket quickly. 
 

The ticket was $130 (already paid) which according to my California friend is a bargain. They cost over $550 for the same ticket. 
 

So how many of you are guilty  of rolling a red? How many always come to a full and complete stop 

I don't run lights, but I will slow to 1 mph at an empty 4 way stop and then go, because manual.

I'm confused and have questions.  Did you almost-stop at the red light before turning right or is it permissible to go straight through the red light if you come to a complete stop first?  Or it was an intersection with flashing lights?  Or were you going around/past a school bus?  Or you were driving a school bus?  And school busses are allowed to turn right on red there?

I slowed down at a right turn - California stop.  Camera in Berwyn, IL.  Judge yelled at me to stop in the future.  Saved $100. 
 

Funny part is you can see some hoses in my truck bed and I know they were low commission hoses.  Cracked me up.  
 

I'll slow down to a couple mph at an empty intersection and full stop if someone else is there.

But it's nothing like I see directly in front of my house, from which I can see the elementary playground up the street. I watch people. Low through the 4 way stop at above the 25mph speed limit. 

I'm honestly shocked I haven't seen an accident yet. Kids ride dirt bikes, quads, regular bikes, through the intersection without stopping.....and quickly.

I don't think I've rolled a red light in years but last summer I noticed that I was rolling one of the stop signs in my neighborhood.  I don't know how long I'd been doing it.  There's almost never any cross traffic during my morning commute and apparently I'd adopted the habit of just slowing for it.  I realized it one day when a dog walker was crossing just as I got to the intersection and I had to stop pretty violently to give them the right of way.

wae said:

I'm confused and have questions.  Did you almost-stop at the red light before turning right or is it permissible to go straight through the red light if you come to a complete stop first?  Or it was an intersection with flashing lights?  Or were you going around/past a school bus?  Or you were driving a school bus?  And school busses are allowed to turn right on red there?

 

I slowed for the red light. and then checked traffic. Not quite a stop so I'm guilty. No excuses. 
Right on red is legal after a full stop.  
Yes I was driving an empty bus to my first pick up point for the last morning run. ( I go to 3 different schools. ) 

interesting thing,  that same day 3 other bus drivers  got tickets for pretty minor offenses.  All of us had empty buses. 
 

Speculation is that the camera bus caught the wife or kid of the officer  writing the tickets. It's a $300 fine plus costs to run a school bus stop arm and one of our buses has an automated system. Run the stop arm and you get three pictures and an invitation  to visit court. 

Datsun310Guy said:

I slowed down at a right turn - California stop.  Camera in Berwyn, IL.  Judge yelled at me to stop in the future.  Saved $100. 
 

Funny part is you can see some hoses in my truck bed and I know they were low commission hoses.  Cracked me up.  
 

 

I like the term California Stop.  We are all under pressure.  Bosses get upset if traffic holds you up and you're late, Customers want on time delivery, my kids look at the clock on their phones to see if I'm late  

In my case I have to get from one end of town to the other in 8 minutes. Less if the school is late opening their doors.  
While I do have time between my first school and the second the time crunch between the second and third is 8 minutes or less.  Anything, a red light, heavy traffic,  snow, an accident and I'm late. Not really a big deal unless it's cold, raining, or snowing.  Then some kids who come to school in their pajama's and a light T shirt are going to be in bad shape.  Yes even in the dead of winter in Minnesota. 

I see people running stop signs all the time and it wouldn't bother me so much but they aren't looking first.

Just yesterday, I had two people piss me off. The worst was a guy pulling out of the mall parking. Two cars coming toward me and  the mall guy pulls out in my lane waiting for the two cars he missed seeing to pass with no idea that I was headed for his door. 
 

Even worse, Twice last week people backing out of parking spots without looking. First guy had a van to his right in my direction he threw it in reverse immediately backing out. Not creeping out so he can see around the van better. Just reverse and go.

The other time I was headed to my car in a store parking lot. Same scenario. Lady threw the car in reverse just missing me walking behind her. I jumped out of the way and yelled and the guy in the passenger seat gave me the finger. I don't think the girl driving had a clue that she almost flattened me.  I need to put a camera in my dd beater so I can prove it's not my fault when  I play bumper cars with these people .

I used to do them.  Now too many towns around me, including Berwyn mentioned above, have red light revenue generators so I’m sure to feel the car rock back. The last one my wife got you could literally see a woman with a walker was moving faster than her. 0 danger whatsoever, did not improve the safety of the public, but its $100 or whatever it was in the towns bank account. 

In reply to frenchyd :

That makes a lot more sense now.

I've been guilty of the same thing for the same reason - it's perfectly clear if I go ahead and go now, even though I'm only at about 1mph or less but in the time it will take me to come to the full and complete stop and then get moving again I've got a three minute wait.

Around here, though, school busses are not allowed to turn right on red because...  uh...  safety?  Or something?  I've met a couple of the local bus drivers and they are quite nice and not complete morons so I'm not entirely sure how the whole world would explode if they were allowed to use a bit of judgment.  Same thing with the dance they have to do at railroad crossings where they sit and block traffic for about 60 seconds while they do... something?  Maybe they have a chart in the cab that shows the difference between a train and not a train that they have to reference?  I don't know...  It's for the children or whatever.

Your speculation is probably spot-on, though.  I am completely not for blowing the stop sign on the bus and I think that people need to be given tickets for doing that.  But not every bus driver is as courteous with the deployment of the sign as others.  Some of the ones around here will make the kids wait while a line of traffic goes by, will pull over and waive even a single car here in the subdivision, and/or hang back from one of the stop signs and let cars get ahead since they're heading directly to a traffic light that is (a) usually red, (b) on a long cycle, and (c) has most of the traffic turning right.  Others, though, almost seem to delight in being a rolling roadblock and having the power to call in a license plate.  It's easy for me to see another fool on a power trip taking it upon himself to dispense some "justice" in "retaliation".  I'm sure he's a legend in his own mind and a real joy at parties.

Hopefully that ticket doesn't cause any employment-related problems for you!

In reply to Datsun310Guy :

Berwyn and surrounding (it's hard to see the line between the little villages) seem to be playing "Simon Says" with right on red.  They put a big sign up, and attach a paragraph of rules next to it.

"NO TURN ON RED except when no pedestrians are present and the motorist makes a complete stop before entering the crosswalk."

I've also seen a lack of standard on where they put the sign.

I've become very conservative about my right on red activity.

There is an intersection I go through every day with a sign that says NO RIGHT ON RED. The light is at the top of a hill and its impossible to see traffic approaching uphill from the left. Not only do I frequently see people turn right here, they frequently turn LEFT on RED. In the designated left turn lane. It's not a busy intersection but there's regular traffic, there will always be multiple cars waiting at the lights at any given time of day.

I always stop. Getting beat like Rodney King isn't on my bucket list.

Frenchy - is that ticket going to be an issue with your employer?  Years ago when I worked at a bus company our drivers had to have clean driving records and tickets were grounds for dismissal.

I typically come to compleat stops at lights and stop signs, except the stop sign a few hundred feet from my driveway. I’ve gotten in the habit of doing a California stop. It’s a tee intersection with one side being a dead end street with maybe 10 houses. I too notice it most when there are dog walkers or cyclists crossing. 

wae said:

In reply to frenchyd :

That makes a lot more sense now.

I've been guilty of the same thing for the same reason - it's perfectly clear if I go ahead and go now, even though I'm only at about 1mph or less but in the time it will take me to come to the full and complete stop and then get moving again I've got a three minute wait.

Around here, though, school busses are not allowed to turn right on red because...  uh...  safety?  Or something?  I've met a couple of the local bus drivers and they are quite nice and not complete morons so I'm not entirely sure how the whole world would explode if they were allowed to use a bit of judgment.  Same thing with the dance they have to do at railroad crossings where they sit and block traffic for about 60 seconds while they do... something?  Maybe they have a chart in the cab that shows the difference between a train and not a train that they have to reference?  I don't know...  It's for the children or whatever.

Your speculation is probably spot-on, though.  I am completely not for blowing the stop sign on the bus and I think that people need to be given tickets for doing that.  But not every bus driver is as courteous with the deployment of the sign as others.  Some of the ones around here will make the kids wait while a line of traffic goes by, will pull over and waive even a single car here in the subdivision, and/or hang back from one of the stop signs and let cars get ahead since they're heading directly to a traffic light that is (a) usually red, (b) on a long cycle, and (c) has most of the traffic turning right.  Others, though, almost seem to delight in being a rolling roadblock and having the power to call in a license plate.  It's easy for me to see another fool on a power trip taking it upon himself to dispense some "justice" in "retaliation".  I'm sure he's a legend in his own mind and a real joy at parties.

Hopefully that ticket doesn't cause any employment-related problems for you!

Some bus companies allow right on red .  A few don't but their drivers might anyway.  Big Bus drivers in  general tend to be older retired guys like me making a few dollars in their retirement. By our nature we drive more conservatively. Mostly because with a load of kids you just can't put them at risk. 
The tough part is schedules School starts when it starts and the kids gotta be there in their seats. Working back from there gets you to the various stops on a schedule that the kids count on. Can't be early or the kids won't be there. Can't be late or kids suffer.  Trains,  traffic, weather, ( especially snow ) accidents,  long red lights , etc. Make it a challenge. 

APEowner said:

Frenchy - is that ticket going to be an issue with your employer?  Years ago when I worked at a bus company our drivers had to have clean driving records and tickets were grounds for dismissal.

 

Right now we are 8 drivers short and we are among the better off companies.  All of the mechanics  and office personal are driving.  Even the Bosses wife.  
So I don't think so. 
Luckily the boss buys new buses and gets rid of them when they are 5 years old. Few if any mechanical issues. So he gets away with using the mechanics as drivers. ( expensive drivers) 

We were the first company to use the new class 111 buses.  Small Buses that look like buses but are painted white instead of Yellow  and don't have stop arms or lights.  You can drive them with a regular license.  They are used for special needs students. 
The good thing is it's a stepping stone to the big 40 foot buses. Those are the safest, most efficient way to transport students.  So safe that no seat belts are required. Rarely in the 5 million miles annually nation wide does a big bus have a fatality that a seat belt might have made a difference.  In fact the most often killed person in a big bus is the driver( with his seat belt on)  
In fact in  any 5 year period more students drown in big buses than a seat belt will save.  

wae said:

In reply to frenchyd :

That makes a lot more sense now.

I've been guilty of the same thing for the same reason - it's perfectly clear if I go ahead and go now, even though I'm only at about 1mph or less but in the time it will take me to come to the full and complete stop and then get moving again I've got a three minute wait.

Around here, though, school busses are not allowed to turn right on red because...  uh...  safety?  Or something?  I've met a couple of the local bus drivers and they are quite nice and not complete morons so I'm not entirely sure how the whole world would explode if they were allowed to use a bit of judgment.  Same thing with the dance they have to do at railroad crossings where they sit and block traffic for about 60 seconds while they do... something?  Maybe they have a chart in the cab that shows the difference between a train and not a train that they have to reference?  I don't know...  It's for the children or whatever.

Your speculation is probably spot-on, though.  I am completely not for blowing the stop sign on the bus and I think that people need to be given tickets for doing that.  But not every bus driver is as courteous with the deployment of the sign as others.  Some of the ones around here will make the kids wait while a line of traffic goes by, will pull over and waive even a single car here in the subdivision, and/or hang back from one of the stop signs and let cars get ahead since they're heading directly to a traffic light that is (a) usually red, (b) on a long cycle, and (c) has most of the traffic turning right.  Others, though, almost seem to delight in being a rolling roadblock and having the power to call in a license plate.  It's easy for me to see another fool on a power trip taking it upon himself to dispense some "justice" in "retaliation".  I'm sure he's a legend in his own mind and a real joy at parties.

Hopefully that ticket doesn't cause any employment-related problems for you!

 Nation wide an average of 1400 kids a year are killed or injured with 10 feet outside the school bus.  $300 ticket is too cheap as far as I'm concerned. Several times a month they blow through my stop arm.  
There are state guidelines ( speed limit and distance controlled) when we are required to turn on the ambers. Red only comes on when the doors open. 
 The sole exception is when I have a student coming across the street from outside the zone.  
We drive around the block etc to avoid having children cross the street.  But school districts have budgets and bus time and mileage eat into it.  

As for driver discretion I really try to work with drivers.  I know getting behind me can make them late and Bosses are Bosses. I'll pull over if I can or wave them by before deploying the lights/stop arm. 

New drivers don't,well because they are new.  They might not last or we older drivers will clue them in.  
To be fair not all kids are well brought up by parents. Some dawdle getting on, selecting which seat to get in, putting their bags and backpack down just so before sitting down and letting me drive away.  Or the reverse . Taking their time getting up out of their seat then picking up their bags and back pack rearranging their clothes and slowly wandering from the back seat to off the bus.  
It's all about them and being cool. The rest of the world can just wait.   

A civil engineer, my dad designed the main intersection in our hometown.  He determined the traffic rules, ordered the signs, etc.  Late one night, he was pulled over for a right turn on red at this intersection.  The officer claimed there was a sign, my dad insisted not.  He got the officer to take him for a ride around the block.  The officer was surprised there was no "no turn on red" sign, swearing one was there all along.

How many other oblivious mistakes has this officer made, not allowing a defense?

Kramer said:

A civil engineer, my dad designed the main intersection in our hometown.  He determined the traffic rules, ordered the signs, etc.  Late one night, he was pulled over for a right turn on red at this intersection.  The officer claimed there was a sign, my dad insisted not.  He got the officer to take him for a ride around the block.  The officer was surprised there was no "no turn on red" sign, swearing one was there all along.

How many other oblivious mistakes has this officer made, not allowing a defense?

We give people power over us and hope they use that power correctly.  Not easy when they don't.  Most try to do correctly but with regard police it's remarkable how few retire with full pay. 
The old saw. Power Corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. 

Frenchy do you mind saying what city tagged you and the other drivers? 

In reply to wae :

Oops Sorry to skip something. 
Rail road crossings.  
By law we are required to come to a complete stop at the white line painted back slightly from the tracks. 
Prior to the Railroad crossing  at the Yellow round sign with RR crossing on it. We are required to turn on our emergency ( 4 way ) flashers to warn drivers behind us we will be stopping. ( Brake lights alone are not enough )  

We have to come to a full and complete stop.  open our drivers side window , open the door ( won't open until the wheels completely stop )   Shut off all noise making equipment, fans, both radio's, defrosters, quiet the kids,  look left, look right,( company policy requires a second look)  Closes the door and then proceed closing window,  turning off flashers, turn on radio's fans and defrosters. 
 

That's why we are so slow getting rolling. 
If you've seen the movies of buses hit by trains you wouldn't cheat one bit either on any of that.  

As a fellow bus pilot years ago to fill in insurance coverage after selling a business, I was impressed by the professionalism shown by the county drivers I worked with.  I already had my CDL from owning a few concrete mixers and the county still put me through their entire training program.  Serious business moving other people's babies, keep up the good work.

My favorite observation about the job: They put you in a room with anywhere from 5-50 or so kids, put them behind you, then expect you to drive that room down the road safely.

Middle schoolers are the worst.

In reply to jgrewe : I'm pretty lucky. I have both high schoolers and Jr high together. The high schoolers quickly calm down the middle school students. Peer pressure works so well.  
 

Same goes with the elementary kids.  Pre schoolers just want to follow leaders  ( older children)  pulling over a few times early in the school year and explaining to the misbehaving students why it's in their interest to follow the rules works well.  Then I tell them they have made everyone on the bus late. By now the other kids understand what not to do and "explain" to the younger misbehaving kids not to do it again. 
 

I always remember to make it about them. Kids that age are the center of their universe  and once they understand the rules will benefit them they're very supportive and life gets less like juggling feathers in a hurricane.