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Toyman!
Toyman! MegaDork
8/17/23 1:49 p.m.
slefain said:


I mentioned the John Eagle Collision case because not nearly enough people know about how modern cars are put together for crash safety. You can't just weld in a patch panel anymore, you have to replace the entire piece with the exact number of welds (or glue) as the engineers intended.

 Actually, you can. John Eagle Collision lost that case because they knowingly didn't follow Honda's written procedure for welding in a replacement roof and decided to bond it with automotive adhesive instead. Had the roof been welded per Honda's procedure, they wouldn't have faced such steep fines. 

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
8/17/23 1:58 p.m.
camopaint0707 said:

In reply to Toyman! :

I have it from the lead technican of that shop, on record, that the tech had been using nylon and nylon is what cut the metal.  How it cut steel is still something I find hard to believe.

I am pretty sure, Toyman, that it is not a leap to assume this is, at best, a gross error if not a lie.

Driven5
Driven5 UberDork
8/17/23 2:04 p.m.

Have you been talking with the body shop directly, or still with Safelite as an intermediary? Directly reduces the potential for both miscommunication and misinformation.

Toyman!
Toyman! MegaDork
8/17/23 2:19 p.m.
camopaint0707 said:

In reply to Toyman! :

I have it from the lead technican of that shop, on record, that the tech had been using nylon and nylon is what cut the metal.  How it cut steel is still something I find hard to believe.

With that statement, I did a little digging. It looks like Safelite recommends using a Kong Tool to cut the urethane around windshields instead of dragging it through the old fashion way. It's more controlled and safer for the tech than using power tools or knives. If that is what was being used, I can see how the sheet metal could be cut. Apparently, it's a common issue when using steel or stainless wire but less so when using synthetic lines. Titan Cord, which is what is recommended when not trying to save the glass, is rated at 750 pounds Dragging it through the urethane with a ratchet I can see how the thin steel could be cut. I'm surprised the line didn't cut before cutting that far. If you watch the entire video you can also see why the cut would have started at the cowl mounting tab. 

 

camopaint0707
camopaint0707 Reader
8/17/23 2:24 p.m.

In reply to Driven5 :

Safelite, the only thing I've said to the hyundai dealer was do not do repairs without my authorization, estimate only.  

Ranger50
Ranger50 MegaDork
8/17/23 2:47 p.m.

Late to the party on this one, but definitely used a pneumatic/electrical windshield "removal" tool to seperate the glass from body. That repair is going to suck for all involved. It would never be right, imo. Safelite has gone waaaay downhill in quality towards repairs in the past 20 yrs. I wouldn't let them touch or mention E36 M3 as they probably are greasing palms with this repair.

Explorer ST. About to have the SECOND windshield put in due to stone chip damage and spreading cracks. Waited and got an OE w/s for the second, we had barely made 3 or 4 payments on it at the time. When done and they scurried away like the cockroaches are to light, they completely buggered up how the gasket sits against the body. Ex still hasn't made a claim yet to the new insurance carrier to get it fixed as this literally happened as she changed insurance companies. Flo is full of a satchel of richards coming out of her mouth.

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
8/17/23 3:02 p.m.

Man, that sucks. Sorry to hear about your troubles. 

To me it sounds like they are at least trying to make you whole on the issue and they are admitting fault. I don't think it matters how it happened really, it just happened. 

We do have a bit of a pitchfork army vibe in this thread and I agree I think it will be hard to have that repair ever be "same as new". But on the other hand, I think you can make the same argument about just about anything else. Any crash could compromise the safety or rust protection systems of a car and yet they are repaired and sent back on the road all the time.

It just sucks all around.

No Time
No Time UltraDork
8/17/23 3:58 p.m.

I'd get the insurance involved.
 

If their assessment is that it's repairable, use one of the insurance companies preferred shops so the insurance company AND the body shop will stand behind it. Typically, when done by one of the insurance companies preferred shops, repairs are warranted for as long as you own the vehicle. 

Javelin
Javelin MegaDork
8/17/23 6:34 p.m.
Toyman! said:
slefain said:


I mentioned the John Eagle Collision case because not nearly enough people know about how modern cars are put together for crash safety. You can't just weld in a patch panel anymore, you have to replace the entire piece with the exact number of welds (or glue) as the engineers intended.

 Actually, you can. John Eagle Collision lost that case because they knowingly didn't follow Honda's written procedure for welding in a replacement roof and decided to bond it with automotive adhesive instead. Had the roof been welded per Honda's procedure, they wouldn't have faced such steep fines. 

Makes you wonder what the Toyota repair procedure is for repairing two feet of firewall/cowl that a window tech Sawzalled off.

vwcorvette (Forum Supporter)
vwcorvette (Forum Supporter) UberDork
8/17/23 7:02 p.m.

My wife's BMW i3 needs a windshield due to a rather long crack heading down it's center. She asked why I haven't contacted someone like Safelite to come to her car and replace it. I've had nothing but issues as well with Safelite in the past. I bring all my windshield issues to a locally owned family run glass shop. When I can get her car free from her I will do the same. Franchises are the learning space for many a tech deciding if they want to be a tech. I don't want them learning on my car if this is really not for them. 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
8/17/23 9:40 p.m.

In reply to camopaint0707 :

I agree. Probably not a nylon string. They said that so you were not focused on how they used equipment they didn't know how to handle. 
 

I'm not so sure about the gas. You would have been buying gas for your own car- no real difference with the rental. 
 

I also really doubt your threat about the insurance. If the rental is in your name, you will definitely be the one paying for repairs if you wrap it around a tree. 
 

Im sorry you are going through this frustration. 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
8/17/23 9:41 p.m.

I've had good work from Safelite.  No complaints. 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
8/18/23 4:47 a.m.
tuna55 said:

I wonder if this will total the car. If you're in anything close to a salt state, a weld repair is going to drastically compromise the corrosion resistance. Add to that the difficult-to-measure rigidity after the repair on a part of the car critical to the crash structure, and this gets ugly really fast. I'd have Toyota see it and be prepared to call a lawyer.

In a salt state, the windshield seal area usually rusts out, unnoticed until you have the windshield replaced for other reasons and then you find out that there's nothing for the urethane to set to.

 

Unless it's a Corolla, in which case you can usually push the windshield out by hand because Toyota makes their cars out of a corrosion-happy grade of steel only slightly better than Mazda and the windshield is held in by gravity and spring pressure from the wiper blade arms.    This is not an exaggeration, I had a few customers whose cars weren't so bad that you couldn't put them on a lift, but you had to be extremely gentle when installing a new oil change sticker because you could push the windshield out with light thumb pressure.  GLASS DOES NOT FLEX.  And no windshield place in the world would want to touch that job if you broke it.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
8/18/23 4:53 a.m.
Toyman! said:
slefain said:


I mentioned the John Eagle Collision case because not nearly enough people know about how modern cars are put together for crash safety. You can't just weld in a patch panel anymore, you have to replace the entire piece with the exact number of welds (or glue) as the engineers intended.

 Actually, you can. John Eagle Collision lost that case because they knowingly didn't follow Honda's written procedure for welding in a replacement roof and decided to bond it with automotive adhesive instead. Had the roof been welded per Honda's procedure, they wouldn't have faced such steep fines. 

Call it passing the buck or CYA, but there is a lot to be said for following procedure when there is a chance that your work may end with a court deposition.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
8/18/23 6:05 a.m.

Just an FYI.  I have never ever seen a glass company use a piece of string to cut the sealant.  They used a device that looks like a putty knife on a reciprocating saw.  I've made one of these myself with a bench grinder and a dull recip saw blade when one of my first tasks at a new job was to replace the rear window in a Ridgeline.  Worked great.

 

I don't see how one of those tools could CUT sheetmetal but I could see how it might BEND it.

 

I don't see the damage as being particularly structural but I would still be concerned over potential NVH in the future.  NB: I live where it is common for rocker boxes and stuff (you know, where seat belts attach) to go completely missing, windshield frames rust badly, floors rust away from firewalls at the seam, etc, so I look at something as in innocuous as "windshield sealing area" as trivial from a safety perspective.

 

No matter what, it's their admitted berkeleyup, they should pay for it.  Period.  

camopaint0707
camopaint0707 Reader
8/18/23 6:55 a.m.

Soooooo.....after I had told the body shop and the local safelite don't do any repairs until I can get a second opinion.  I get a call from the safelite district manager saying the repairs at the body shop were completed and it's ready for a windshield.  At that point I said I didn't authorize it and he's like, oh well it's fixed so don't worry.  I then said we longer have any reason to communicate directly.  I called my lawyer and insurance, went to pick up my windshield less car because safelite was on their way to pick it up back up.  Then later that evening....a safelite regional manager (not sure how many more guys up the food chain I have to get) called an apologized and asked how to make it right, I said at this point I'm considering legal action for safelite authorizing repairs I didn't.  The body shop was helpful and said they were instructed by safelite to do the work.  Despite what I said.  I've gotten to the point of recording these phone calls.  So I'll have some more interesting phone calls to make today.

Slippery
Slippery PowerDork
8/18/23 7:08 a.m.

In reply to camopaint0707 :

This sucks. 

Depending on what state you live, just make sure if you record their conversations that you let them know you are doing so. 

Toyman!
Toyman! MegaDork
8/18/23 7:33 a.m.
Javelin said:
Toyman! said:
slefain said:


I mentioned the John Eagle Collision case because not nearly enough people know about how modern cars are put together for crash safety. You can't just weld in a patch panel anymore, you have to replace the entire piece with the exact number of welds (or glue) as the engineers intended.

 Actually, you can. John Eagle Collision lost that case because they knowingly didn't follow Honda's written procedure for welding in a replacement roof and decided to bond it with automotive adhesive instead. Had the roof been welded per Honda's procedure, they wouldn't have faced such steep fines. 

Makes you wonder what the Toyota repair procedure is for repairing two feet of firewall/cowl that a window tech Sawzalled off.

This is why I would get Toyota involved with the repair. It could be as simple as sending them a couple of decent pictures of the damage. 

 

JoeTR6
JoeTR6 Dork
8/18/23 7:34 a.m.

Check whether you live in a one-party state where you (being one party) can record coversations without the other party's permission.  If not, make it clear on the recording that you informed the other party that you were recording.  I'm not a lawyer, so it may be safer to inform the other party anyway, particularly if they are in another state with different laws.

Sorry to hear about this fiasco.  Good luck in getting it settled.

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
8/18/23 7:38 a.m.

I will leave aside the question of safety since I cant make anything out of the pictures as to what was cut. 

 

I assume the repair is going to show up on a carfax if the work is done by a reputable body shop. It is a weird repair that most people wont give a second thought, but others are going to avoid the car just because it is a weird footnote. In my opinion Diminished Value would be a fair claim for this event.

 

Here is my concern with the repair: Any time you weld something together, you have oxidized metal on the surfaces of the weld seam. This can often be cleaned up on one surface and painted, but often the backside is left with an oxidized seam. Depending on where the seam is and what elements it will be exposed to, it will start to rust out after a while. The area shown would certainly be wet and salty if the car is in the rust belt. Is it really 30 gauge metal? I do not personally know anyone who can weld tin that thin.

 

I would be proposing a diminished value of say 5k that would neutralize any future loss you might face if you decide to sell the car say 5 years from now. Not saying there even would be a diminished value, but if you were having trouble selling for market value  because of the carfax, I am pretty sure that selling for 5k less would move the car to someone who is not bothered by this repair. Take the car to Toyota and pretend that you are going to trade it in mentioning the repair. See what they say about dimished trade-in value.

ddavidv
ddavidv UltimaDork
8/18/23 7:45 a.m.

Wow. Sorry I didn't see this one until this morning. What follows are a few bullet points from someone actually in the insurance/body repair business.

The main thing at the moment is the car owner never authorized repairs by the body shop. That is a big no-no. Safelite is likely in big trouble for that. It would matter what the language on their own repair authorization for the windshield said, but I doubt it addresses sending something out to a third party for damage they caused.

The photos weren't very good for me to go by, but they certainly did a major screw up. Could that be fixed by welding back together? Yeah, probably. Tricky repair, though. And I'd have thought the dash would have to come out so it wouldn't get damaged by weld splatter and to make sure any wiring behind there didn't get damaged. 

This would not total the car. Woody, stop the hysterical commenting. I love you, man, but your posts here were almost universally wrong.

In this instance, I would have recommended making a claim through the owner's own insurance and let them run interference with Safelite.  And yes, using an insurer's recommended repair shop typically comes with a lifetime repair guarantee, which in this case would have been a real bonus against future windshield leaks, cracks, etc.

Safelite, IMO, is the training academy for all new glass installers. They all start there, get 'trained', then move on to other shops or open their own businesses if they are any good because nobody ever stays at Safelite long.  They are the Autozone of glass companies.

Windshields now are often structural items. They are engineered to add rigidity to the car along with the proper adhesives. Safelite knows this. Some installers don't know or care. Finding a good glass guy is more important today than it was twenty years ago. Plus now we've got all sorts of electronic garbage that is tied into the windshield.

The Eagle Collision case is very well known in the industry.  It was a much needed wake-up call to a lot of shops.  My personal opinion, having reviewed it back when it was a thing, was that the people who died in that car would have been dead anyway. It was a very bad wreck. I don't feel the roof repair mattered all that much. But, it was done wrong, and they rightfully got spanked for it.

So, to the original poster:  in this rare case I would say it is lawyer time, which means all communication now must go through them. Safelite can't speak to you directly if you are represented, and any calls you get should be referred to your attorney. You will be without your car for a long time, probably, because the attorney will probably not want it touched further. They can probably address loss of use as part of the case. This will either be a long slog or it may end quickly, but the latter is only if the attorney sees a marginal monetary return for them. At this point I'm not sure there is much your own insurance can do for you, since the car was (supposedly) repaired. 

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
8/18/23 8:27 a.m.

Yeah lawyer time.  This just got expensive for safe lite. 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
8/18/23 8:38 a.m.

I don't know the Toyota recommended procedure, but I am absolutely confident it would have involved removing the dash and cleaning and painting on the rear side. 
 

No one did that for $1400.

Sorry you are going through this. It's now in the lawyer's hands. 

camopaint0707
camopaint0707 Reader
8/18/23 9:11 a.m.

In reply to SV reX :

they actually did it for $1150.81, the body shop showed me their bill

camopaint0707
camopaint0707 Reader
8/18/23 9:21 a.m.

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