I know state laws may vary, but curious for input.
SWMBO drives north on our street, then at a stop sign turns right (east) onto the main road that leads to the neighborhood exit. School bus stopped on that main road (it has no stop sign at our street) west of the intersection. About half a house west, so not close to "in the intersection box." I don't know if the kids were in front of the house, or at the corner. If they were at the corner, they would have to walk away from the intersection to get to the bus, i.e. walking away from the car and the turn the car was making.
What determines if it's ok to make the right turn when the red bus lights are flashing? If oncoming you don't stop a quarter-mile back when you can see the flashing lights, you come close-ish but don't pass, so if the bus stopped two streets further up I think it is ok to make the turn but this made us pause as to if it was ok to go.
02Pilot
UltraDork
10/8/20 7:27 a.m.
In Ohio, the fine is hefty for doing it wrong at a school bus. I would then err on the side of caution.
If unsure, my move would be to stop but if possible, while stopped, make eye contact with the bus driver. If the bus driver realizes you are stopped and do not need to be, expect that the bus driver will wave you on to proceed.
If I am understanding what you wrote correctly, your wife is well forward of the bus and is therefore not required to stop. I think in simple terms in Ohio, you can not break the plane of the bus bumpers on a bus that is red flashing. If all your wife's movements are forward of the bus then it seems that she is not affected by the stop sign/flashing lights on the bus.
In reply to glueguy (Forum Supporter) :
Thank you for asking
I'm a bus driver so I see this all the time. The stop arm only controls traffic in the direction the bus is heading. Cross traffic is free to go.
Please use caution around School buses though. Kids often run late with zero impulse control and dart across traffic to catch the bus. Heads up and check for running kids but legally if they dart out in front of you, you won't be charged with failure to stop.
One other tidbit that seems misunderstood. The flashing amber lights on the top of the school bus is only a warning light. Warning of the coming, red flashing lights ( including the stop arm )
Do not confuse them with the turn signals or emergency flashers. There is a thing called a turn lane stop. If the students only approach the bus from the right side and there is room or an actual turn lane. We turn on the emergency flashers and can open our door without stopping traffic.
Do not confuse turn signals with Amber flashers on top of the bus. Turn signals/ emergency flashers are down on the front fenders ( rear brakes lights )
Amber flashers are on top of the bus next to the red flashers with the word School Bus between.
In my area most of the busses are now equipped with automatic cameras. If you violate the airspace while the cameras are on, you get a hefty fine by mail with a nice color photo. I'm generally in favor of heavy enforcement around buses and school zones (don't get me started about that one) but from several accounts these cameras may be timed far outside of actual safety or legal violations. Local authorities have little interest in discussing whether or not you deserve a fine.
If it were here, I'd say if turning was illegal you'd be helpfully notified by mail.
02Pilot
UltraDork
10/8/20 8:12 a.m.
On the subject of the amber flashers, drivers around here have taken to driving with them essentially permanently on, rendering them completely useless as a warning device.
Ah amber flashers. I called the police and the bus company on a school bus. Driver trying to turn left onto a busy street. No traffic openings, so what does he do, throws on the ambers and just starts pulling out. Makes his left turn and then turns them off.
Who doesnt automatically come to a stop then those go on, you know the reds are just a couple seconds behind
In reply to cfvwtuner :
No one ever gives the bus a chance in traffic, I cheated wherever I could to keep moving
In reply to 02Pilot :
I see that occasionally with newer drivers. They aren't sure or want to be extra cautious because of kids. I do all I can to correct that but roughly 1/3-1/2 of the drivers "turn over" in a given year.
The job is tough. We're expected to be at a given stop at a certain time which traffic, weather, construction, etc etc etc makes it really hard especially if you're a new guy just learning the route off a sheet of paper.
The pay per hour is fair but often you have to work from 6:00 am to 6:00 pm to make $30,000 a year. Yes you get sometime off in the middle of the day if you don't get a midday charter. Too many days without and your annual income drops. You'll need to take evening sports charters too. But for 3 months of the summer you'll get no income.
Benefits? None, retirement? None!
Plus you need a background check, clean driving record, and no DUI's Then get a CDL which requires annual Physicals, plus a bus endorsement. And often Air brakes.
Former PA and MS school bus driver here.
In PA, the law says:
-
Motorists must stop at least 10 feet away from school buses that have their red lights flashing and stop arm extended.
-
Motorists must stop when they are behind a bus, meeting the bus or approaching an intersection where a bus is stopped.
-
Motorists following or traveling alongside a school bus must also stop until the red lights have stopped flashing, the stop arm is withdrawn, and all children have reached safety.
-
If physical barriers such as grassy medians, guide rails or concrete median barriers separate oncoming traffic from the bus, motorists in the opposing lanes may proceed without stopping.
In general, a smart route planner intentionally puts bus stops IN intersections because it stops the greatest amount of traffic. In the case of your wife's route, she should be fine to turn legally if she's more than the minimum distance from the bus unless NY law prohibits it.
In situations like the one you encountered, they assign one stop for multiple kids. Bus stops are chosen based partly on efficiency, and partly on pre-load safety. Route engineers will choose a stop that has X number of kids from Y walking distance, but also they take visual aspects into play... that is to say, where the bus stop is visible by the most number of houses so parents can keep an eye on their child; making sure they got on the bus, making sure they didn't get abducted, hit by a car, etc.
That bus stop was likely chosen because it fit the greatest number of those qualities, and also means that, when the bus stops, you may have kids crossing the streets in the intersection, running to meet the bus because they are late and not paying attention, etc. That is the reason PA added that "approaching an intersection" rule. The basic intent of the law is that if the bus is IN the intersection (nose of the bus past the stop sign or the plane of the sidewalk/road edge), then you may not go through the intersection even if you are more than 10' away from the bus. The point of that law was so that they could make sure the kids were safe before the bus came, and be safe while loading. For that reason, they made the law to say that the whole intersection stops if a bus is loading inside the intersection with reds flashing.
cfvwtuner said:
Ah amber flashers. I called the police and the bus company on a school bus. Driver trying to turn left onto a busy street. No traffic openings, so what does he do, throws on the ambers and just starts pulling out. Makes his left turn and then turns them off.
Who doesnt automatically come to a stop then those go on, you know the reds are just a couple seconds behind
Good for you. Luckily stuff like that is recorded on the GPS all buses transmit constantly. They know if we're speeding, run a red, miss a stop, get there early or late,etc.
Plus all school buses have camera's 5 in a big bus ( one for just the driver. ) and smaller Special education buses have 3. The non bus buses ( white ones) have only 1
By the way, just looked it up. NY is 20'
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:
Former PA and MS school bus driver here.
In PA, the law says:
-
Motorists must stop at least 10 feet away from school buses that have their red lights flashing and stop arm extended.
-
Motorists must stop when they are behind a bus, meeting the bus or approaching an intersection where a bus is stopped.
-
Motorists following or traveling alongside a school bus must also stop until the red lights have stopped flashing, the stop arm is withdrawn, and all children have reached safety.
-
If physical barriers such as grassy medians, guide rails or concrete median barriers separate oncoming traffic from the bus, motorists in the opposing lanes may proceed without stopping.
In general, a smart route planner intentionally puts bus stops IN intersections because it stops the greatest amount of traffic. In the case of your wife's route, she should be fine to turn legally if she's more than the minimum distance from the bus unless NY law prohibits it.
In situations like the one you encountered, they assign one stop for multiple kids. Bus stops are chosen based partly on efficiency, and partly on pre-load safety. Route engineers will choose a stop that has X number of kids from Y walking distance, but also they take visual aspects into play... that is to say, where the bus stop is visible by the most number of houses so parents can keep an eye on their child; making sure they got on the bus, making sure they didn't get abducted, hit by a car, etc.
That bus stop was likely chosen because it fit the greatest number of those qualities, and also means that, when the bus stops, you may have kids crossing the streets in the intersection, running to meet the bus because they are late and not paying attention, etc. That is the reason PA added that "approaching an intersection" rule. The basic intent of the law is that if the bus is IN the intersection (nose of the bus past the stop sign or the plane of the sidewalk/road edge), then you may not go through the intersection even if you are more than 10' away from the bus. The point of that law was so that they could make sure the kids were safe before the bus came, and be safe while loading. For that reason, they made the law to say that the whole intersection stops if a bus is loading inside the intersection with reds flashing.
In Minnesota we intentionally set back from intersections for just that reason. We try to avoid having students cross the road wherever possible. I'll go up one side of the road picking up children and back down the other side picking up students. If there is an in and out I'll go into apartment buildings lots to pick up students. And maybe cross the street to the apartments on the opposite side.
Not all districts can afford that measure of safety so there are certainly exceptions.
Y'all made me go take a walk. She was turning right, the bus stopped in the vicinity of the fire hydrant, or even for the sake of discussion let's say halfway between the hydrant and the intersection. If the kids congregated on the corner (you can sort of see the sidewalk cut) they would be moving away from the intersection and her right turn.
Curtis' PA law above is the gray area - the bus wasn't in the intersection, yet "close" and obvious that the red lights were flashing. She turned right and I agreed but figured it would be an interesting armchair driver situation to ask about.
In that situation I would probably be "that guy"...
I'd wait at the stop sign if the red lights were flashing (just in case running children) and then scoot out of the side street as soon as the sign swung in/red lights stop flashing (before the bus got rolling) to avoid being behind the bus.
In reply to No Time :
If I know I'm going to make multiple stops where people behind me are trapped I pull as far right as possible and stick my arm out to wave them by.
The guys right on my bumper can't see the wave by (nor can I usually see them ) but a car length or so behind they see the wave by.
glueguy (Forum Supporter) said:
Y'all made me go take a walk. She was turning right, the bus stopped in the vicinity of the fire hydrant, or even for the sake of discussion let's say halfway between the hydrant and the intersection. If the kids congregated on the corner (you can sort of see the sidewalk cut) they would be moving away from the intersection and her right turn.
Curtis' PA law above is the gray area - the bus wasn't in the intersection, yet "close" and obvious that the red lights were flashing. She turned right and I agreed but figured it would be an interesting armchair driver situation to ask about.
If I were driving a school bus in PA at an intersection like that one, picking up at the fire hydrant, I would expect people to go straight or right and disregard my red flashy thingys. I wouldn't be upset at all. I might even expect someone to turn left and stop 10' away from my bumper as long as they didn't have their tail in the intersection blocking other cars.
frenchyd said:
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:
Former PA and MS school bus driver here.
In PA, the law says:
-
Motorists must stop at least 10 feet away from school buses that have their red lights flashing and stop arm extended.
-
Motorists must stop when they are behind a bus, meeting the bus or approaching an intersection where a bus is stopped.
-
Motorists following or traveling alongside a school bus must also stop until the red lights have stopped flashing, the stop arm is withdrawn, and all children have reached safety.
-
If physical barriers such as grassy medians, guide rails or concrete median barriers separate oncoming traffic from the bus, motorists in the opposing lanes may proceed without stopping.
In general, a smart route planner intentionally puts bus stops IN intersections because it stops the greatest amount of traffic. In the case of your wife's route, she should be fine to turn legally if she's more than the minimum distance from the bus unless NY law prohibits it.
In situations like the one you encountered, they assign one stop for multiple kids. Bus stops are chosen based partly on efficiency, and partly on pre-load safety. Route engineers will choose a stop that has X number of kids from Y walking distance, but also they take visual aspects into play... that is to say, where the bus stop is visible by the most number of houses so parents can keep an eye on their child; making sure they got on the bus, making sure they didn't get abducted, hit by a car, etc.
That bus stop was likely chosen because it fit the greatest number of those qualities, and also means that, when the bus stops, you may have kids crossing the streets in the intersection, running to meet the bus because they are late and not paying attention, etc. That is the reason PA added that "approaching an intersection" rule. The basic intent of the law is that if the bus is IN the intersection (nose of the bus past the stop sign or the plane of the sidewalk/road edge), then you may not go through the intersection even if you are more than 10' away from the bus. The point of that law was so that they could make sure the kids were safe before the bus came, and be safe while loading. For that reason, they made the law to say that the whole intersection stops if a bus is loading inside the intersection with reds flashing.
In Minnesota we intentionally set back from intersections for just that reason. We try to avoid having students cross the road wherever possible. I'll go up one side of the road picking up children and back down the other side picking up students. If there is an in and out I'll go into apartment buildings lots to pick up students. And maybe cross the street to the apartments on the opposite side.
Not all districts can afford that measure of safety so there are certainly exceptions.
We're way lazier than that here. Granted, most of my routes were rural. I would go 5 miles, pick up one kid who crossed the road, then ago another 3 miles and pick up a brother/sister on the right side...
Doubling back would add a ton of miles for little benefit.
The few suburban routes I had, I might have a stop at each intersection going down street A, then come back street B and stop at each intersection. The kids would have to walk to the end of the block, (whichever was closer) then it was up to the kid/parent if they crossed before the bus got there, or waited for my red lights. Most of the high school kids were already across. Most of the elementary kids waited on their own corner and crossed when I stopped.
There were, or course exceptions. For instance, if street F was a high-traffic area or a divided boulevard, often one bus went up one side and another route's bus would come down the other side for a little geographic overlap.
In reply to Wally (Forum Supporter) :
In the UK you're legally obligated to yield to transit buses at all times.
My brother was being a dick and took the nose off a car in London he knew to be plainclothes Bill one time because they had paddy whacked him after a weekend bender one time. Didn't get in trouble.
I've seen Ulsterbuses get very aggressive when merging.
I expect buses to be treated like E36 M3 in DC.
I've seen the patrons. And our civilian drivers are scum. I always let buses merge even though I fervently believe they shouldn't be government operated.
Strangely yellow school buses aren't much of a thing here.
For example, most of my routes were in this area:
And the roads looked like this: Farms, woods, and goats. My biggest concern wasn't hitting a kid, it was hitting a deer or a bear.
nutherjrfan said:
In reply to Wally (Forum Supporter) :
In the UK you're legally obligated to yield to transit buses at all times.
My brother was being a dick and took the nose off a car in London he knew to be plainclothes Bill one time because they had paddy whacked him after a weekend bender one time. Didn't get in trouble.
I've seen Ulsterbuses get very aggressive when merging.
I expect buses to be treated like E36 M3 in DC.
I've seen the patrons. And our civilian drivers are scum. I always let buses merge even though I fervently believe they shouldn't be government operated.
Strangely yellow school buses aren't much of a thing here.
True, but you drive on the wrong side of the road.
Sorry... "motorway."
(just kidding of course... all in good fun. I'm picking on you because you are probably too far away to come kick my butt)
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
No I appreciate humor.
Very much so.
There is a cancel vibe on the forum however but I've never seen it from you.
In reply to nutherjrfan :
There's a certain degree of aggression needed to get through traffic with any attempt to maintain a schedule, to many things work against us. You get pretty good at looking way ahead and behind, picking out who you can safely cut infront of, and where you'll hit problems. Most days even stopping every few blocks I could still get through traffic quicker than the average car while having a spotless safety record.
