Shop Class as Soulcraft

bludroptop wrote:

Duke wrote: ... the steaming pile of horseE36 M3 that comprises *Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance* ...

"Dick and Jane" it ain't. That doesn't necessarily make it a steaming pile. See also: Dostoevsky, Shakespeare, Beckett, etc. Serious literature isn't always an easy read. But that's fine. It's not for everyone.

Challenging, I have no problem with. Long is not an issue; I'm a fast reader and my comprehension is good. Esoteric and intellectualized, I'm fine; I've actually read a ton of philosophy and other non-fiction for interest and entertainment. But Pirsig drags us through the whole bitter, convoluted story for absolutely zero payoff in the end. That's why I say it is a E36 M3 pile. If you're gonna make me work for it, there needs to be something I'm working for.

'Zen' had no payoff because the situation itself had none, I got the feeling that Pirsig had sort of written himself out when the book ended. That book was really about his journey with his son Chris (who was murdered some years after the book was published) and their respective struggles with mental illnesses, all the stuff about Quality was sort of an afterthought.

Godot never shows up either.

Not arguing - just saying I think it was an important work.

Similarly, I'd be a very different person if I never met Holden Caulfield. Is that good or bad? I dunno - but its the truth.

When a book has that kind of power then I think it deserves some respect.

I've read Zen at least twice, maybe three times, but I don't think that I ever really enjoyed it.

Funny how you only hear about people who've left high-level white collar jobs to pursue hands-on careers. The genius machinist or cabinet maker with 40 years at the bench just does that, but the guy from the Brookings Institute who fixes motorbikes now is a big deal.

At least those guys are celebrated online.

http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/memuseum1.htm

Woody wrote: I've read Zen at least twice, maybe three times, but I don't think that I ever really enjoyed it.

I'm even OK with not enjoying a book if I think it improves me somehow, but Zen just didn't get me anywhere.

SilverFleet wrote: I bought this book, and started reading it, but I got bored of the author's writing style very fast. I do agree with the premise of the book though. Maybe I should give it another shot.

Same with me.

motomoron wrote: Funny how you only hear about people who've left high-level white collar jobs to pursue hands-on careers. The genius machinist or cabinet maker with 40 years at the bench just does that, but the guy from the Brookings Institute who fixes motorbikes now is a big deal.

I'm not sure if it is a big deal, or if it's a matter of saying "hey, there is an alternative".

Yes, I have read the book. Part of that discussion reminded me of an episode of Dan Rather's show on AXS TV, where he went and looked at the apprentice program that BMW has in the factory in SC. He interviewed some of the parents and without fail, everybody said something along the lines of "I'm sure it's a great program for some kids, but my kids must go to college". My step dad always used to joke that at the current rate, the driver of the garbage truck will have to have a college degree as a job requirement very soon. Of course, said driver probably has a liberal arts degree these days and can't find another job...

Garbage truck drivers in NYC do pretty well.

They also never tell you what a terrible job that former CPA may be doing.

Some folks think that because they can google how to do something, they can actually do it.

motomoron wrote: Funny how you only hear about people who've left high-level white collar jobs to pursue hands-on careers. The genius machinist or cabinet maker with 40 years at the bench just does that, but the guy from the Brookings Institute who fixes motorbikes now is a big deal.

Well, I'll give you the reverse story...a close relative of mine started off working on the shop floor, went to college at nights (while raising 2 kids and working his full time job), and is now a salaried engineer.

Back in the "old days" it wasn't uncommon for the engineers to rise up naturally from the shop ranks. Lots of times they didn't even have any formal education- I've met at least a couple of engineers in their 50's and 60's who don't actually hold an engineering degree. Nowadays, that sort of career track is almost impossible. Sure, the jobs have changed somewhat, but from what I've seen this change was decreed from on high. If you really want to get all "conspiracy theory", you could make a case for it being done to increase demand for higher education.

oldtin wrote: ^^^also loved the concept of the book but find it ironic that the guy advocating shop skills for a vocation makes the majority of his living as a university professor and writer. I still dig Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

Duke wrote: I can't believe some of you guys managed to wade through the steaming pile of horseE36 M3 that comprises *Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance* , but had difficulty sticking it out through *Shop Class as Soulcraft*. It was 10x clearer, half the length, and 100x less annoying.

I'm with Duke on this one. Zen just seemed....irritating to me. I do agree that the author of Shopcraft wrote at too high a level for his intended audience. He could've turned down the philosophizing a bit and told a better story or made a better point.

Zen still sucks. It's unsalvageable. I think most people who like it say so because it has the word "motorcycle" in the title.

Xceler8x wrote:

oldtin wrote: ^^^also loved the concept of the book but find it ironic that the guy advocating shop skills for a vocation makes the majority of his living as a university professor and writer. I still dig Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

Duke wrote: I can't believe some of you guys managed to wade through the steaming pile of horseE36 M3 that comprises *Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance* , but had difficulty sticking it out through *Shop Class as Soulcraft*. It was 10x clearer, half the length, and 100x less annoying.

I'm with Duke on this one. Zen just seemed....irritating to me. I do agree that the author of Shopcraft wrote at too high a level for his intended audience. He could've turned down the philosophizing a bit and told a better story or made a better point. Zen still sucks. It's unsalvageable. I think most people who like it say so because it has the word "motorcycle" in the title.

It's not for everyone - would have thought a group of folks who build challenge cars would have an appreciation of pirsig's concept of quality. Does seem to be a really like it or really hate it kind of book.

oldtin wrote: It's not for everyone - would have thought a group of folks who build challenge cars would have an appreciation of pirsig's concept of quality. Does seem to be a really like it or really hate it kind of book.

I'm being unnecessarily harsh here. I'm sure it's a great book for some that it speaks to. The thing sold enough copies so it has a lot of merit as otherwise folks wouldn't have bought it. Maybe it's also a bit of "Janes Addiction Syndrome."

In the 90's Janes Addiction released album after album of incredible and innovative music. Now, the albums sound a bit dull to me. The game has moved on. All the bands have taken what Jane's did and either did the same or have improved their innovation in some way. Maybe Zen is like that? When introduced it was ground breaking. Now, it might just be common place or at least so often copied as to seem common.

Woody wrote: Garbage truck drivers in NYC do pretty well.

I predict an upsurge in blue collar salaries in the next 10 years. Exactly because everyone went out and got a liberal arts degree when at least some folks should've learned to be plumbers.

..AND NOW WE'RE BACK ON TOPIC!

oldtin wrote: It's not for everyone - would have thought a group of folks who build challenge cars would have an appreciation of pirsig's concept of quality.

I would, if I could have understood it. And I mean it, I read highly technical and highly philosophical books for fun, so it's not just a matter of failing to be the target audience. I don't think I'm unsmart. But Pirsig tediously dug down through layers and layers of philosophical history and basically what he ended up with is "quality is when stuff is good". Just like he painfully dug down though layers and layers of his own inner turmoil and angst, and then in the last 5 pages decided "well, if I don't want to kill myself, I better cheer up." That's why I say the destination was not worth the journey in Zen.

Pirsig did make a few good points about the psychological foundations of quality and not quality such as when the guy in the motorcycle shop destroyed a valve tappet cover with a chisel because he just didn't care about his work. I've seen a lot of that over the years unfortunately.

After going through this thread, I feel better about only making it halfway through Soulcraft. He was getting pretty darn repetitive, and I presumed he has said all he had to say by that time.

Might dig it out again.

In reply to vwcorvette:

Is that Leo DiCaprio?

Someday I am going to have to sit down and actually read "Zen". Robert Pirsig was one of my Dad's roommates in college. I have heard about the book and the author for years.

In reply to volvoclearinghouse: No, just the cover art from the earliest printing.

The bit in Crawford's book about the "Bettie Crocker Cruiser" is wonderful. (Short version: marketers know that people like to think they are "cutomizing" a vehicle when they're actually just shopping for options from a pre-approved set of things that will all play nice together. He believes this is less intellectual than actual customization/fabrication where you must ensure that all the parts play well with each other.)