Slow down out there.

derekshannon wrote: Oh sure, I see it all the time... "No, Sarge. I'm on Oak Street waiting to bag innocent people for speeding. That robbery-in-progress will have to wait." Your argument just happens to be the best example of a "strawman" I've ever seen.

Ah, but it would have to actually be a strawman to begin with.

You see, being around cops a lot (perhaps you aren't?), I do see it quite regularly. Even experienced it a number of times over the years. I've yet to have a drunk that's crashed into me get a ticket (or a cop that's crashed into me for that matter). Though I've known plenty of drunks who were pulled over while successfully driving and receive tickets (never a drunk cop, of course).

Oh, and I've gotten tickets (that's multiple btw) for 57 in a 55. Baltimore used to hand them out like candy. Several friends have had them as well. That would be Charles Eck, Jack Dyson (his was 56 in a 55 as I recall), and a few others. Names given to help prevent your silly rebuttle about me faking it. Feel free to look them up in the Harford County Maryland phone book yourself.

I've made no claim of being a wonderfully skilled speeder. And that's beside the point.

Fundamentally, I disagree with criminalizing people in the name of prevention. Nor am I happy with placing cops above the laws they are supposed to be enforcing.

Personally, I am much more supportive of holding people accountable and responsible for their actions. A notion that is very much no longer an American notion. Today, we punish severely before an accident, and coddle when it does happen.

And here to blow out everyone's perception about speeding is...me.

Please read these links.

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/26/2627.asp

http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/docs/2008/us-crashcause.pdf (This file is a link to the actual study itself, for those inclined to read it).

US Department of Transportation study finds only five percent of crashes caused by excessive speed.

What was the largest contributor to accidents in the study? Driver error, at 41 percent.

This is straight from the horses mouth. I wish more people knew more about this study because it was not highly published at all. Enjoy.

In some states isn't it illegal to issue a ticket unless you're going something like 5mph over anyways? Due to factory speedo inaccuracies and the like?

I know in my car particularly, i got pulled over and the officer tried to give me a ticket for 72 in a 65. My speedo was registering 70 even, which in my car is about 67mph in reality. Got it down to a warning once i explained all of that to the officer for about 20 minutes.

derekshannon wrote: I've gone and looked at other stats and found similar information. Information that disagrees with my post about NHTSA stats. That'd explain my comment about setting the NHTSA aside and forgetting them. With that said, I'd like to see a logical dispute of excessive speeding not being dangerous. And I'd rather not waste my time dealing with "logic" such as "Speed doesn't kill, it's the sudden stops." or the airline passengers somehow surviving the 600mph flight. I mean that was somewhere below juvenile. Let me give an example: Scenario 1 A car crests a slight rise at the posted 35mph limit. The driver sees a car has backed out of a driveway and is occupying his lane of travel, the driver applies the brakes and slows enough to safely avoid rear-ending the backing car. Scenario 2 A car crests a slight rise at 60mph in a posted 35mph zone. The driver sees a car has backed out of a driveway and is occupying his lane of travel, he applies brakes but is travelling too fast to stop before he colliides with the backing car. Speed is the deciding factor here. The excessive speed FOLLOWED bad judgement and personal injury resulted, not to mention two totaled cars. Since you can't fine "bad judgement" you have to fine the result ie; speeding. Had the speeder been given a ticket by a police officer patrolling that area, the accident would have never occured. But feel free to try to tell me that thousands of traffic violations every day aren't disuaded by the possibility of getting caught and given a ticket. I go through a 4-way stop 2-3 times every day. There's utter chaos each time UNLESS there is a cruiser sitting alongside one of the corners. When that's the case, everyone stops fully and waits thier turn.

I don't think that anyone is going to argue that excessive speeding is dangerous. The problem is that "excessive" is a word defined by each individual, and as they say, the arbitrary number will change based on quite a few factors, including the driver and the vehicle.

If you're going 20mph over the limit, take your ticket and shut up.

If you're getting a ticket for 3mph. 4mph, or even 7mph on a 4-lane highway? That's ridiculous, and i think even you can agree to that.

derekshannon wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote: If you're going 20mph over the limit, take your ticket and shut up. If you're getting a ticket for 3mph. 4mph, or even 7mph on a 4-lane highway? That's ridiculous, and i think even you can agree to that.

100% I just can't deal with the total denial that somehow speed doesn't factor into thousands of serious accidents every year. This thread is only 4 pages long at this point and that very point has been made several times (and not in jest). As I mentioned, the airline passenger comment was hilarious. What you said above is right on.

Speed does play a large factor.... that being said, i don't agree with the slow speed limits on highways at all, and if i were a rich man, i probably WOULD go 20mph over those huge expressways every day. But... it's the law, and even though i think it's dumb, i'll live with it.

I refuse to speed in town. Not even 1mph. I also DO think it's stupid the speed traps set up in weird areas where the limit suddenly drops 5mph for not apparent reason or what have you.... but slow through town, fast on highway seems like something this country needs to work on.

Watch out!!!! I'M ON A ROLL!!

...save the whining for a forum of crybabies that want to listen to it.

No whining here. Tantrums by you. Many of them. Over and over again. But no whining by me.

If you wish to be mistaken as an adult, pretend to be one.

Back to the point, I disagree with you that someone needs to be punished simply because they were speeding. I disagree with you that someone speeding is inherently a danger. You've presented nothing material to substantiate your opinion on these matters, so you've convinced no one.

Now don't worry, I don't expect much of a person like you. You rant and rage much like Frank Burns on MASH. And with about as much substance. So while you're taking yourself seriously (just like he did), I don't. I never have expected you to make a coherent solid arguement worthy of debate. So far, you've met those expectations..

derekshannon wrote: Scenario 2 A car crests a slight rise at 60mph in a posted 35mph zone. The driver sees a car has backed out of a driveway and is occupying his lane of travel, he applies brakes but is travelling too fast to stop before he colliides with the backing car.

I have actually seen this.. thankfully the car that did managed to slow enough to where it was a less than 5mph hit.. unfortunately for the driver of that car.. he ran into the back of a cop car.

For those not familier to Atlantic City and the fact it is an island, you have to go over a bridge to get there. ALL of them are raised height bridges with two also being drawbridges.

The one on US route 30 is a drawbridge with a traffic light not far from the bottom for a cross street. I was sitting on the bridge itself, one lane over and two cars back from a cop when I heard a loud V8 come over the top of the bridge.. followed immediatly by the sounds of skidding tyres.

I tensed and looked up.. just in time to see an older 70s Mustang II come to a skidding halt into the back of the cop car... talk about dead to rights.

Ya'll need to take a breath and go turn some wrenches or something.

I just went out and did some speeding..

derekshannon wrote: I used the term "moron" just one time and never used "adult language" unless I was referring to the other drivers out on the road, not any of you, where I used the term "knotheads" and "douches". Yet you think I'm throwing tantrums?

My son is perfectly capable of throwing tantrums without names. He used to do it before he was capable of speach. You demonstrate the same powers.

Look, if you wish to complain about getting picked on by nasty policemen (as if you alone are getting singled out) then expect to get called on it.

I never made a complaint or said I was picked on. You dreamed this up all by yourself. You dreamed up this notion all by yourself.

I simply refuted your insistance that cops never give minor tickets and your demand for examples. They were given, you ran away.

If anything, the childish behavior rears it's ugly head in the "poor me, I get speeding tickets" comments, not in my responses telling you to grow up and take it like a man.

I never made a complaint about getting a speeding ticket. I've never said if I have or have not received a speeding ticket. You dreamed this up all by yourself.

A person like me? And you know me how?

By your actions and your words. You are immature and dishonest. As you've shown repeatedly in this thread.

But I'm acting like a child?

Yes. Tantrums are thrown by children.

Why that point continues to elude you is sort of worrisome.

It never has. I specified it in my first post on this subject.

derekshannon wrote: Show me where in every single case I mentioned where speed wasn't the cause.

derekshannon wrote: Either you are hell-bent on ad hominem attacks and your fallacious accusations or are simply ill-equiped to refute the facts as I've repeatedly laid them out here. Those being: 1) Excessive speed is often a factor in traffic accidents

There is a really big difference between "the cause" and "a factor". I think that is all anyone is arguing here.

derekshannon wrote: I appologize. I had you confused with a different poster.

derekshannon wrote: Well, I'll admit that I may have confused your ramblings for someone elses, my mistake.

Several of your posts have been written in a tone that is harsh and condescending, only to realize later that you have attacked the wrong poster.

I think if you slow down a little you will realize there is no need to get so defensive.

derekshannon wrote: 1) Excessive speed is often a factor in traffic accidents True, but bad judgement (accompanied by a lack of skills) precedes excessive speed and most inherent accidents. 2) Speeding tickets dissuade speeders from... speeding. Perhaps true, but not for all. 3) The occasional BS ticket is acceptable in light of all the tickets I didn't get. Fixed that for you! 4) Not all cops are bad apples just trying to bust your balls. Again, true! 5) Speeding tickets are not ONLY a source of revenue, they are an aid to public safety. (did you ever get a ticket for speeding in a school zone or notice that the fines are higher in a school zone?) And, again true! And those who speed in school zones deserve every penalty received. If common sense doesn't prevail, maybe the financial burden will have an impact on personal behaviour. But please ignore all that and call me childish just once more for old-times sake. I'm leaving that to other posters, or let you make the case for yourself (or them). Oh, I just want to mention that I get a real kick out of you and your "tantrum" diatribe. Each post I type sees me sitting at my computer, listening to some Garth Brooks or Toby Keith and watching my two little ones playing as relaxed as I've ever been and and eating my spinach salad yet there you are picturing me jumping up and down all red-faced and psychotic, pounding on the keyboard. Oh the irony. Equally ironic is that not all tantrums are manifested in physical displays of emotion.

SIGNED: Not Foxtrapper

Oh, and ECM's advice is worth noting and heeding!

yawn

Just a thought on the OP, the county commissioner was doing a radio interview a couple of weeks ago and was going over the county budget. He said something along the lines of because the housing market is down (we have taxes when property is sold but no yearly property tax) they will try to make that back up with increased traffic enforcement and increasing fines. I-40/I-75 trough Knoxville is not the place you want to be speeding.

Derekshannon,

We got on with it a while back. I am sure that you don't mean to be so condescending in your posts, but your antagonistic attitude isn't likely to win you any points with "the teacher" either.

Someone who is friendly on a more regular basis would not feel the need to point out instances when they WERE friendly, as a means of defending a more prevelent condescending attitude.

I hate to be the one to point it out to you but your horse is dead sir. It is of course entirely up to you if you wish to keep beating it.

derekshannon wrote:

DILYSI Dave wrote: They are enforcing bullE36 M3 laws that are in place for the purpose of revenue generation.

You're just pissed that you got a ticket. It's gotta be that because logic and fact sure aren't on your side. If you got your way and revenue drops and layoffs ensue, you'll be the first one to complain when there's not enough cops to come to your aid if God forbid you ever need them.

I can't say that I know how much money a traffic officer can bring in through the writing of tickets. However, it would have to be substantially more than his/her salary and benefits in order to be real revenue that can keep other police officers employed. So unless it's a huge amount of money, there aren't enough cops solving crimes.

say it takes a cop 10 minutes to find, stop, ticket and return to his hiding spot. thats 6 tickets per hour, at an average of 120 bucks a ticket. he only has to write about one an hour to pay his salary and operations cost, the other five are profit.

Throwing a little gas at the fire:

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-02-24/story/officer_chasing_tinted_window_suspect_before_fatal_crash_fhp_says

A Jacksonville traffic cop was speeding after a vehicle with excessive window tint when the officer plowed into a pickup truck, killing an 86-year-old man last month, the Florida Highway Patrol said Tuesday night. Officer Marcus Kilpatrick was driving an estimated 98 mph when his patrol car struck the truck driven by Matthew Brice Ogden Jr. on Merrill Road Jan. 14. Ogden, who was not wearing a seat belt, was thrown through the passenger window of his vehicle and died at the scene. The road has a posted speed limit of 40 mph. Lt. Bill Leeper, a spokesman for the Highway Patrol, said a traffic homicide investigator told him Tuesday night about the traffic violation targeted by Kilpatrick. Having windows dark enough to obstruct the driver’s view or be a safety issue for police is a civil infraction under state law. There are different measurements of tint for side and rear windows. The infraction is considered a nonmoving violation. Leeper declined to comment further on the case, which is still under investigation by the Highway Patrol and the State Attorney’s Office. The investigation includes questions over some witness accounts that Kilpatrick was not using his emergency lights or siren. Kilpatrick told investigators he’d activated the lights but not the siren, his police union attorney said. The vehicle Kilpatrick was trying to catch was not stopped. Kilpatrick’s estimated speed was recorded on a computer in his car. The computer records data similar to a plane’s black box. Ogden’s stepson, Douglas Berreth, said he received a call Tuesday night from the Highway Patrol about the tint violation. Berreth said he was appalled by the news. “It’s ridiculous that someone loses their life and an officer needs to chase someone for bad window tint at 98 miles per hour,” Berreth said. “That’s preposterous.” Kilpatrick, who remains on duty as a traffic enforcement officer, has referred calls to the Fraternal Order of Police. Police union attorney Paul Daragjati said Kilpatrick acted properly with the information he had at the time. “I’ve known Marcus for quite a while and he always uses good judgment,” Daragjati said. “I think that in this unfortunate incident that he, for whatever reason, felt that this particular individual needed to be stopped.” Kilpatrick, an officer since 2004, remains on duty as a traffic enforcement officer. The Sheriff’s Office has yet to hold an administrative hearing into the matter because the investigation is ongoing. The patrol car, going west on Merrill Road, struck Ogden’s eastbound pickup truck as it was turning from the center lane into a parking lot about 1 p.m. Both cars spun and the truck then struck the patrol car. The patrol car then drove into the driver’s side of a stopped car about to leave the parking lot. Kilpatrick, 29, suffered minor injuries, as did the driver of the stopped vehicle, Robyn McCormick, 33. McCormick’s lawyer, Henry Gare, said Ogden’s insurance agents told him witnesses saw Kilpatrick driving without his emergency equipment on. Under state law, when an officer exceeds the speed limit to catch a traffic violator, he must use emergency equipment and consider whether he is endangering the public. Gare’s account reflects a report by the Highway Patrol that some witnesses contradicted initial indications that Kilpatrick’s emergency lights were on. Gare said McCormick did not see the police car coming. “It was still a violent collision with her [McCormick’s] car, that’s just how incredibly fast he was going,” Gare said. “There are reasons why they need lights and sirens on so tragedies like this don’t happen.” McCormick suffered a shoulder injury that will require months of therapy, Gare said. He said he has notified the city that he is investigating the accident. Berreth said he is considering hiring a lawyer to investigate the case. State and court records show that Kilpatrick was cited for speeding twice in 1998 and once in 2000, before he joined the Sheriff’s Office. Department records show that Kilpatrick has had one accident, when he backed into a parked vehicle in 2006. Records also show he was cited for failing to observe a stop sign in 1999 and was operating a vehicle with defective equipment in 2005. As for Ogden, records show he received a speeding and seat belt citation last year, 10 years since his last citation. Kilpatrick’s evaluations are full of praise from his superiors. He is described as a enthusiastic team player who is kind and caring toward the public. “Officer Kilpatrick is a hard worker that quietly does a very good job,” concluded his latest evaluation in September 2008.

derekshannon wrote: Let me give an example: Scenario 1 A car crests a slight rise at the posted 35mph limit. The driver sees a car has backed out of a driveway and is occupying his lane of travel, the driver applies the brakes and slows enough to safely avoid rear-ending the backing car. Scenario 2 A car crests a slight rise at 60mph in a posted 35mph zone. The driver sees a car has backed out of a driveway and is occupying his lane of travel, he applies brakes but is travelling too fast to stop before he colliides with the backing car.

Scenario 3

A car crests a slight rise at 35mph, and sees a car backed out of the driveway. They have plenty of time to brake and do so safely. The county, with input from the NHTSA and IIHS, decides that because it is a residential area and there is a school 8 blocks away, the speed limit should be 25mph. People driving at the safe and prudent 35mph are criminalized, and the county makes extra money.

derekshannon wrote: But again, please show me where I am either immature or dishonest. (and do so with that "poop thread" that was apparently on this site for some time in the back of your mind!)

I don't even know what the "poop thread" is. I've never mentioned it or referred to it. Just another dishonest claim by you.

My "insistance that cops never give minor tickets" was not that at all.

"Name ONE person that you know that got a ticket for 26 in a 25 or even close. "

I remember those words of yours, even if you don't. That request (which wasn't a real request, you believed it impossible to have happened) was what I gave three examples of to refute your assertion that it never happens.

Your response? Well, try being honest and go back and look at your response. It isn't pretty or impressive.

I said it wasn't a real request by you because it wasn't. In the post where you made the above quoted request, your next sentence was: "Yet another strawman to burn. Read what the NHTSA had to say. "
You clearly did not expect a reply, especially with examples, showing people getting exactly these sorts of tickets.

Oh, I'd forgotten about that time I got a ticket on base for doing 10 in a 7.5. Yea buddy, I was a real menice screaming along at 10 mph on a wide flat open road.

If you deny the fact that you've skated several times and been let go and that a stupid ticket here and there is acceptable in light of that fact then you're the dishonest one here, not I.

I've never mentioned anything about my skating. You've made this up all by yourself.

Though for the record, I fundamentally disagree with your notion that not being punished one time means you deserve to be falsely punished another time.

If it isn't about revenue, then why fine speeders?

Make them do community service instead. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. Think about how nice and clean our cities and towns could be with all the free labor they'd get.

But oh, bunches of people doing community service doesn't help with budget shortfalls, now does it?

Let's not even get into the issue of ticket quotas.

You're reaching troll status here Bub. I'd say you need to dial it back a bit and be more respectful. Quite a few people here can disagree and still share a beer later. I dunno if that's the case with you as your argument style is quite antagonistic.

Another trait you may have learned from your cop buddies is how you're never responsible for what you've said/done. When people point out valid criticism you rely on the "I was pushed to do that!" or "That wasn't what I meant and that's YOUR fault that you took it that way."

I've seen quite a few cops choke to death when it was required for them to say "I was wrong" or "I'm sorry". Seems it's against their religion to say those simple things to a "civilian". Their lives would be a lot easier if they could. Not trying to take you behind the woodshed here. This forum is a nice place. No need to call people morons or juvenile just for trying to make a joke or two.

Relax. We have our opinions and you have yours. They're different. It happens.

Please don't go all joedapro on us.

derekshannon wrote: And not that you care but I DO call BS on your 26 in a 25 until I see a copy of the ticket.

I'd say that your directly calling me a liar is being childish and immature. FT and I have had our disgreements over the years, but I respect him and his opinions and his posts are certainly not wacky.

Are you a Mshiny happy person or do you just come across that way on teh 1ntr4w3b, yo?