So when was America reallly, truly awesome?

I am starting another internet argument.

I hear a lot about "this country going to E36 M3." So, out of curiosity and ignorance, I would like for others to pinpoint the "good old days" that are always referred to.

My intuition is that today's America is pretty hard to beat. Glass ceilings are not nearly as low as they used to be, racial equality is more of a reality than ever, life expectancy is pretty good, and the war we have going on is being fought by a voluntary force. Sure, things could be better; much better, but have they ever been in the past?

The first counterpoint that I would use against me is the national deficit.

I would say the manipulation of the currency and the erosion of civil liberties are the worst they've ever been.

I would argue that are standard of living is slipping in a big way. People of my parents generation could afford to buy a house and live comfortably on a single income. I don't think thats doable any more.

Capt Slow wrote: I would argue that are standard of living is slipping in a big way. People of my parents generation could afford to buy a house and live comfortably on a single income. I don't think thats doable any more.

I'm doing it and it's rough...

I think http://www.amazon.com/Age-Diminished-Expectations-Third-Economic/dp/0262611341/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250848424&sr=8-1 Sums it up.

The book was written a while ago before Krugman went crazy left wing. Yes it has a liberal slant, but the economics behind it are very solid. It is dated, but good. Flame me if you want(but I'll only accept flames from those who have read the book), Wharton, Harvard, my school, all require it for your MBA so there is some benefit in there.

Now to answer the question that started this thread. By nature Americans, and humans in general, love to complain about something. I'll say that for about 5-15 years or so after the revolution everyone was feeling pretty good, but past then we just started getting bogged down in the day to day administration of our country. And so we complain. So I'll say noone in history will ever say the country is doing anything right at any given time, except maybe during the large wartime push of WWII when we all put our shoulders to the grindstone.

Capt Slow wrote: I would argue that are standard of living is slipping in a big way. People of my parents generation could afford to buy a house and live comfortably on a single income. I don't think thats doable any more.

I've been doing it for 25 years. Peoples version of comfortable has changed, and expectations have become unrealistic.

Mitchell, I think the points you make speak more to the advancement of the general standard of living in the world more than the state of the country. Most of our modern competitive countries have a similar standard of living.

The creep of government control is what is killing us now. This has been taking place for generations, even prior to FDR's massive dictatorship during the depression and WW2. People didn't pay attention during times of prosperity, and during times of crisis (Depression) gave up rights for government supplied quick solutions that were neither quick, nor solutions.

It's probably boring to most people, but if you don't study history and how the country was founded you won't grasp the reasons people (like me) are very upset about the last, oh, 15-20 years or so. The rate of acceleration towards socialism has really picked up. We've now got an extremely dangerous recipe with a way-far-left president coupled to a far-left democratic (oxymoron) House and Senate that can pretty much ram anything they want through.

It's not the easiest read and a little too slanted towards religion for me but I do recommend reading "The Five Thousand Year Leap". It does a good job of illustrating where the founders came up with the concept of our government and how they viewed it's power. What we have now is really quite a bastardization of it.

Bias disclaimer: I'm neither a donkey or an elephant. I voted Libertarian in the last election and am pretty much an independent.

I'm not petitioning for the return of the Victorian era, but a few more social graces would be nice. How hard is it to be polite, please don't call me Yo. Although it's not the Ritz, take your hat off in restaraunts. It's OK to hold doors for women and old people, some are surprised but most like it.

"The good ole days"? Every era had its foibles, sure you could be a one income home owner, but dentists used belt driven high speed steel drills back then. If you lopped off a finger, it stayed off. No technology to put it back on.

Maybe the 1800s were better? If you're white middle class, sure. That too depends on where you lived. My grandparents came off the boat from Ireland. Yes, he was a fireman. Maybe it's a job no one else wanted, but there's a boatload of Irish firemen out there.

The 1960s? I remember Nuclear Bomb drills and knowing that if I hid under my desk the commie bastards' radioactive fallout couldn't get me.

I dunno MitchellC, when was America at its best for you?

Dan

ddavidv wrote: Mitchell, I think the points you make speak more to the advancement of the general standard of living in the world more than the state of the country. Most of our modern competitive countries have a similar standard of living. The creep of government control is what is killing us now. This has been taking place for generations, even prior to FDR's massive dictatorship during the depression and WW2. People didn't pay attention during times of prosperity, and during times of crisis (Depression) gave up rights for government supplied quick solutions that were neither quick, nor solutions. It's probably boring to most people, but if you don't study history and how the country was founded you won't grasp the reasons people (like me) are very upset about the last, oh, 15-20 years or so. The rate of acceleration towards socialism has really picked up. We've now got an extremely dangerous recipe with a way-far-left president coupled to a far-left democratic (oxymoron) House and Senate that can pretty much ram anything they want through. It's not the easiest read and a little too slanted towards religion for me but I do recommend reading "The Five Thousand Year Leap". It does a good job of illustrating where the founders came up with the concept of our government and how they viewed it's power. What we have now is really quite a bastardization of it. Bias disclaimer: I'm neither a donkey or an elephant. I voted Libertarian in the last election and am pretty much an independent.

So the good old days were when Standard Oil ruled the world and the rail barrons and the steel barrons had all the money?? When it was legal to have children work, and ok to dump harmful chemicals into our drinking water? When food was not checked by any standard and you were allowed to burn anything, anytime, unregulated?

Just wondering.

The grass is greener...

1997-1999. American innovations led to massive and excessive growth in one area, and that allowed every industry to do well.

Proof how awesome America is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzoeEdW-EDQ

America is generally a pretty decent place to live. I can't imagine moving to another country, and really don't even see myself moving out of OK (us folks is kind down 'round these here parts) unless it was to the WY/MT/ID area maybe when I'm a little older.

My biggest problem is the welfare/entitlement programs in this country. Especially because there is a perfect example in my family. My little sister decided to drop out of college and become a baby machine and live off the gov't.

Does she have to pass a drug test to cash that check? Nope, funny, I have to be able to so that I can earn the tax money that goes to support her.

Does she have to go back to school or learn some trade so that she can become a contributing member of society? Nope. I think Welfare should help get people back on their feet (that can, obviously debilatating disease, disability excluded) not provide a way to sit around and be lazy. "We will help you only if you are willing to help yourself" kinda deal.

Does she feel embarrased/ashamed for the burden she has become on my parents? Nope. She feels entitled to all the handouts, she's almost proud that she gets to use our tax dollars to buy brand name products, while many of us buy generic to save money.

And that so many people think the gov't can/will/should help them vs doing it for themselves. I went to college, got a degree and have been willing to take chances (become a contractor with no benefits to get myself into a different profession) and move around.

Look at C4C, the gov't couldn't even handle getting the dealers paid, so many were pulling out of the program. So the gov't "ended" it early before it's become mainstream that something like 4% of reimbursements have been made.

And to think people want these guys in charge of alot more.......

"So the good old days were when Standard Oil ruled the world and the rail barrons and the steel barrons had all the money?? When it was legal to have children work, and ok to dump harmful chemicals into our drinking water? When food was not checked by any standard and you were allowed to burn anything, anytime, unregulated?"

All you have to do to change all the above to accurately describe current conditions is to susbsitute rail and steel barons with financial papertrader barons and you're there (well, you and I can't burn anything anytime unregulated but the big corporations pretty much can). All the rest of it is going on right now in numbers difficult to contemplate; according to that lovely article in Nat. Geographic recently, there are more slaves, child and otherwise, in this country now than there were when slavery was legal. Unsafe water in municipal districts all over the place. E coli outbreaks every time you turn around. The top 1% control (lots) more than 50% of the total wealth, an imbalance greater than ever before in history. Our E36M3 is broken and we better berkelying fix it...

Wowak wrote: the erosion of civil liberties are the worst they've ever been.

Citation needed.

Don't confuse the actual erosion of civil liberties with people who love to complain that their civil liberties are being eroded.

Most of the time I hear someone say "My civil liberties are being eroded," what they actually mean to say is "Someone else is exercising their civil liberties in a way I don't like."

The cousin of this is the "censorship" whine. How many times have you seen someone stand in front of a camera and say "The media is censoring me."? If they could even begin to comprehend the irony of that statement their heads would collapse inward on themselves, forming a singularity of ignorance.

People complain a lot about not being "heard" or being "able to get their message out." Well, actually, we hear you just fine. There's just no constitutional guarantee we have to take you seriously.

jg

JG Pasterjak wrote:

Wowak wrote: the erosion of civil liberties are the worst they've ever been.

Citation needed. Don't confuse the actual erosion of civil liberties with people who love to complain that their civil liberties are being eroded. Most of the time I hear someone say "My civil liberties are being eroded," what they actually mean to say is "Someone else is exercising their civil liberties in a way I don't like." The cousin of this is the "censorship" whine. How many times have you seen someone stand in front of a camera and say "The media is censoring me."? If they could even begin to comprehend the irony of that statement their heads would collapse inward on themselves, forming a singularity of ignorance. People complain a lot about not being "heard" or being "able to get their message out." Well, actually, we hear you just fine. There's just no constitutional guarantee we have to take you seriously. jg

And as a bonus your uneroded civil liberties allows you to be protected from big hairy lowbrows from kicking your ass for being a whiney butt!

Whenever the overall experience is compared to almost any other nation in the universe...

Kramer wrote: Whenever the overall experience is compared to almost any other nation in the universe...

LOLZ.

In reply to Capt Slow:

It's doable. I am close (my wife only works part time to keep her from going insane). The problem is now people's "needs" have increased. We "need" cable TV and internet (over $100 a month) Even "cheap" cable is close to $30 add in the requisite new car, cell phone w/ data plans, and all the other consumer crap yeah it's tough to live on one income. I have a lot of these and I don't feel squeezed at all. I see too many people talking on their iphones driving their 2 year old luxury cars with aftermarket rims that cost more than my last car, complaining that they are finding it tough to make ends meet. Our definition of comfortable has expanded way too far.

The creep of government control is what is killing us now. This has been taking place for generations, even prior to FDR's massive dictatorship during the depression and WW2. bPeople didn't pay attention during times of prosperity, and during times of crisis (Depression) gave up rights for government supplied quick solutions that were neither quick, nor solutions. It's probably boring to most people, but if you don't study history and how the country was founded you won't grasp the reasons people (like me) are very upset about the last, oh, 15-20 years or so. The rate of acceleration towards socialism has really picked up. We've now got an extremely dangerous recipe with a way-far-left president coupled to a far-left democratic (oxymoron) House and Senate that can pretty much ram anything they want through.

WISDOM!!!

That being said. I woke up this morning, so I'd have to say for me, personally, today is pretty much the day that America is truly awesome, but not half as awesome as tomorrow.

The scary thing is the creep of government control also equals corporation control. Show me one current politician holding a federal office that does not have ties to a specific industry. In my mind the only difference between right and left are the corporations and industries that have influence over them. Big oil, unions, insurance companies, banks, etc...

All in all things are pretty good. We all can see some improvement that needs to be made but my opinion is that we're doing just fine right now.

• Equality is closer to being achieved than ever
• The internet allows the little guy to comment on the biggest issues
• We have cars that can run 200k+ miles AND get decent gas mileage with better ones coming all the time.
• Airline tickets are fairly cheap so travel is within the reach of most people.
• We are not involved in a World War that threatens our way of life and existence
• Nuclear annihilation seems to be much farther off than say during the Bay Of Pigs.

..Just a few...

/thread...

Xceler8x wrote: All in all things are pretty good. We all can see some improvement that needs to be made but my opinion is that we're doing just fine right now. * Equality is closer to being achieved than ever * The internet allows the little guy to comment on the biggest issues * We have cars that can run 200k+ miles AND get decent gas mileage with better ones coming all the time. * Airline tickets are fairly cheap so travel is within the reach of most people. * We are not involved in a World War that threatens our way of life and existence * Nuclear annihilation seems to be much farther off than say during the Bay Of Pigs. ..Just a few...

+1 on the internet comments. If this were China some of these comments probably would be flagged for removal of the poster!

Capt Slow wrote: I would argue that are standard of living is slipping in a big way. People of my parents generation could afford to buy a house and live comfortably on a single income. I don't think thats doable any more.

I am doing that right now. Family of 5 Single income and we have a very nice house. th ehouse is our ONLY debt. I think that is the key, managing debt.

Just my opinion, and I kno wI am somewhat of an anamoly, but it is still doable.

I'd say some time around 1491...