In reply to Platinum90:
RBR invoking team orders in Brazil would have violated their oft-stated rule of treating drivers as equals. Not a classically "moral" act, IMHO.
If Ferrari hadn't escaped Germany with its' pitiful fine for a blatant rules infraction, Alonso wouldn't have an 8pt lead - and may be behind one or both of the RBR guys.
as blatant as it may have been, there is no way to PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt that team orders were invoked.
Smedley could have gotten on the radio and said "OCTOPUS. Can you confirm that you understood this message." Still can't prove anything in a court.
Platinum90 wrote: Red Bull should have made Vet stand aside for Web in Brazil.
There is no way on earth Vettel is moving over in Brazil- He's still in the drivers championship strongly. Now- If Sebs leading, Mark is second and Alonso is third in the season finale, and Seb doesn't have a "cut tire" on the last turn of the last lap- just enough trouble to let Mark past, but not Alonso, I will be very surprised if Mark doesn't knock his lights out on the podium.
Platinum90 wrote: as blatant as it may have been, there is no way to PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt that team orders were invoked. Smedley could have gotten on the radio and said "OCTOPUS. Can you confirm that you understood this message." Still can't prove anything in a court.
Hence my point regarding unenforceable rules...........
Streetwiseguy wrote:Platinum90 wrote: Red Bull should have made Vet stand aside for Web in Brazil.There is no way on earth Vettel is moving over in Brazil- He's still in the drivers championship strongly. Now- If Sebs leading, Mark is second and Alonso is third in the season finale, and Seb doesn't have a "cut tire" on the last turn of the last lap- just enough trouble to let Mark past, but not Alonso, I will be very surprised if Mark doesn't knock his lights out on the podium.
I would almost love to see that. Icing on the cake it would be, after seeing Alonso win the championship, to see Webbo stuffing Vettels face in.
Platinum90 wrote:DukeOfUndersteer wrote: I have been betting on Webber, but as of recently i gotta say its Alonso's to lose... Gonna go watch it with the Atlanta F1 Watch Party!You are going to be there? My girlfriend and I are going. We usually go to a few a year, and being the finale, I am definitely going. She will be there in a McLaren hat...I may have to make a shirt to commemorate the event.
yep, ill probably be wearing my Ferrari shirt. Think everyone is meeting up at 7:30...
Sweet. I am going to make a "Fred in Red 2010" t shirt.
Platinum90 wrote: Sweet. I am going to make a "Fred in Red 2010" t shirt.
An HRT shirt would be more grassroots style
Its not very grassroots at all. Fernando has been dedicated to his sport since a very young age. He has gottten where he is on pace alone. Remember, he was a pay driver back at Minardi. Now he is a top driver in a top team.
I don't think anything about F1 is grassroots, but it is wickedly awesome.
Wait until next season with the rules involving when one can change the angle on the rear wing after making a pass or improving one's position. It's timed. IIRC, the rear wing can't be moved for something like 1.8 seconds after improving ones position....
That aside, I think limiting the number of engines per car per team has added a bit of drama to this coming weekend.
Ferrari supposedly has a lightly used engine for Alonso. One they've been saving just for this last race.
All that body work and carbon fiber tubs become obsolete when the checkered flag waves.
And next year's Lotus may have a Renault engine and Williams transaxle--if someone doesn't buy the team and rename it.
But it's been a good year for F! competition. good racing, interesting team goings-ons, and on and off track drama.
And I'd pay to see Webber punch out Vettel. Speaking of, does Webber have a contract for next year?
Platinum90 wrote: Its not very grassroots at all. Fernando has been dedicated to his sport since a very young age. He has gottten where he is on pace alone. Remember, he was a pay driver back at Minardi. Now he is a top driver in a top team. I don't think anything about F1 is grassroots, but it is wickedly awesome.
He is bloody quick, I give you that. He is just a bit too ready to jump on the radio and complain that someone in front of him is slower and generally whine about stuff. There was also the melt down at McLaren when his young teammate proved to be just as quick.......
Now if you are talking former Minardi pay drivers in with a shout at the championsip - come on Weber mate!
I hope anyone other then Alsono wins. I don't really care which one of the other drivers.
monark192 wrote: He is bloody quick, I give you that. He is just a bit too ready to jump on the radio and complain that someone in front of him is slower and generally whine about stuff. There was also the melt down at McLaren when his young teammate proved to be just as quick....... Now if you are talking former Minardi pay drivers in with a shout at the championsip - come on Weber mate!
He does come across as a bit of a whiner, doesn't he?
However, and others may disagree, his behavior at McLaren seemed duly influenced by the team's bias towards LH. And LH pounced on that opportunity to put a good psycological beat-down on Fred. That year was not a shining example of driver/team management so it wasn't just an Alonso melt down.
As for this year, I don't have any real favorite driver or team, so I say - Let the best man win!
oldsaw wrote: However, and others may disagree, his behavior at McLaren seemed duly influenced by the team's bias towards LH. And LH pounced on that opportunity to put a good psycological beat-down on Fred. That year was not a shining example of driver/team management so it wasn't just an Alonso melt down.
I see your point but look at what similar bias has done to Mark Weber this year.
In reply to monark192:
Yep, RBR copied the McLaren 2007 playbook instead of learning from it - and they are likely to have the same results, too.
It is just a shame that the 2010 Drivers Championship has a very strong chance of being won by Alonso by less than the 7 points he gained in Germany when Massa moved over. I dont think team orders should be against the rules, but they are and Ferrari violated them. Posey's Perspective of F1 debrief asked how much you would pay for a championship point. It seems as if Ferrari paid $100,000 (fine) for 7 of them.
Platinum90 would disagree, but them were some mighty cheap points from an F1 perspective.
oldsaw wrote:monark192 wrote: He is bloody quick, I give you that. He is just a bit too ready to jump on the radio and complain that someone in front of him is slower and generally whine about stuff. There was also the melt down at McLaren when his young teammate proved to be just as quick....... Now if you are talking former Minardi pay drivers in with a shout at the championsip - come on Weber mate!He does come across as a bit of a whiner, doesn't he? However, and others may disagree, his behavior at McLaren seemed duly influenced by the team's bias towards LH. And LH pounced on that opportunity to put a good psycological beat-down on Fred. That year was not a shining example of driver/team management so it wasn't just an Alonso melt down. As for this year, I don't have any real favorite driver or team, so I say - Let the best man win!
It is my belief that his "whineyness" stems from a huge ego. i would have an enormous ego if I had beaten Schumacher to the title twice on the trot.
I think this is the most succinct description of McLaren 2007 than there has ever been. How would you feel if you were just signed to the best team in the sport after winning two world championships, brought over 3 tenths of a second worth of speed to the car, and have the team use it to benefit "new talent".
I just REALLY don't want Vettel to win. He is an incompetent douche. He needs a couple more years to mature. (similar to how I felt about Hamilton) I would rather see Webbo win it than Vettel. Hell, I would rather see Hamilton win it than Vettel.
I may be biased because I used to live in spain, but Viva Fernando, Forza Ferrari.
oldsaw wrote: Platinum90 would disagree, but them were some mighty cheap points from an F1 perspective.
oh, and I don't disagree. They were VERY cheap points, and if Ferrari could buy that many points for the same money, I am sure they would again.
(if I were Montezemolo, I would have fired Smedley and Massa ON THE SPOT. Insubordination shall not be tolerated. You get NOTHING. YOU LOSE! GOOD DAY, SIR!)
Platinum90 wrote: I think this is the most succinct description of McLaren 2007 than there has ever been. How would you feel if you were just signed to the best team in the sport after winning two world championships, brought over 3 tenths of a second worth of speed to the car, and have the team use it to benefit "new talent".
I totaly disagree, he's always had a big ego, and he just couldn't hack it when the new kid was just as good or better than him so he threw his toys out of the pram.
Anyone but Alonso is mine and many others mottor. Hell I'll even take the Convict over him.
I'm happy with either Vettel or an outside shot of Hammy to win, just not Alonso.
monark192 wrote:Platinum90 wrote: Sweet. I am going to make a "Fred in Red 2010" t shirt.An HRT shirt would be more grassroots style
I'm awaiting my 2011 Lotus shirt, hopefully in the JPS colors.... 
Latest conspiracy theoy on the outcome of the drivers championship from Joe Saward. Vettel is leading at the end of the race with Weber 2nd and Alonso third. Alonso knows that if Vettel moves over to give Weber the win, Weber is WC and there is nothing to be done about it. However, if Alonso were to drop back to say 5th or 6th, then the Red Bull guys would have to race each other as Vettel could still be in with a chance for the title. We have seen how the Red Bull vs Red Bull scenario plays out already this year......
Adrian_Thompson wrote:Platinum90 wrote: I think this is the most succinct description of McLaren 2007 than there has ever been. How would you feel if you were just signed to the best team in the sport after winning two world championships, brought over 3 tenths of a second worth of speed to the car, and have the team use it to benefit "new talent".I totaly disagree, he's always had a big ego, and he just couldn't hack it when the new kid was just as good or better than him so he threw his toys out of the pram. Anyone but Alonso is mine and many others mottor. Hell I'll even take the Convict over him. I'm happy with either Vettel or an outside shot of Hammy to win, just not Alonso.
I am not debating that he has a huge ego. He is an F1 driver, you have got to have a huge ego to make it that far. You really have to believe that you are the best in order to push yourself that far.
However, it is my firm belief that Hamilton would not have had as much speed out of the box were it not for the development work that Fernando did. (We know that Hamilton is not as good a development driver as Fernando, look at the 2009 season for proof.) Hamilton continued to have the fastest car on the grid for the first 3/4ths of the season, because Fernando was developing the hell out of the 2007 McLaren. If McLaren had simply gotten behind Alonso, they would certainly have had the WDC and WCC wrapped up with 3-4 rounds to go. Instead, they lost all WCC points, 100 mil, and the WDC by one point.
Say what you will, Fernando is the all around BEST driver on the grid with Kubica or Hamilton on a close second. Webber is past it, and Vettel is too immature, both are making up for it with a SUPER quick car. Put any of the other three I mentioned in the car, and they would have had the WDC wrapped weeks ago.
In reply to DukeOfUndersteer:
I want a Lotus shirt too. I just wish they had some British drivers.
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