Tesla is in big trouble

Funny...just read the thread to this point and it dawned on me that I have yet to set my ass in a hybrid, much less an EV.

Even knowing that Musk himself has never invented anything in his life, when I think EV, I think Tesla. When I think Tesla, I think Musk and all the unnecessary shiny happy person antics he has pulled on people over the span of his life for what seems like fun, and then bragged about. Then I forget all about EVs again because I associate them with his image.

I don't think Musk or any of the other players care about personal EVs; the future is in autonomous vehicles and robots. If Musk has a future, it is in those areas.

Boost_Crazy said:

In reply to dculberson :

Musk went far right and started throwing nazi salutes
 

It's garbage like this that makes it hard to have a decent conversation here sometimes. 

Lol OK. When German newspapers won't even print the photo of the gesture because it's illegal there you know you're on the right side of history standing up for the guy. I don't think he's a nazi but he did three clear nazi salutes intentionally for attention. That puts him firmly in the E36 M3head troll bucket that excludes him from consideration for my business. 

Ultimately if his actions are perceived as putting the company value at risk by the board, they can fire him and replace him.  If the current trend continues for another quarter I feel like they must be considering it.

Driven5 said:

What Elon (and his team) found is that there is apparently more than 10x less waste than he claimed, and was brought in to find.

The thing that both sides ignore all the time is that the vast majority of Federal spending goes to one of three categories -- Social Security/Medicare, Defense spending, and paying interest on the national debt.  Anything that doesn't fundamentally change one of those is just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Musk might or might not be a lot of things, but one thing is for certain, Ketamine Boy is Bat E36 M3 crazy.

I believe for Tesla to turn around in the next quarter or two they need to:

1. Oust Musk - he's too polarizing as demonstrated in this thread. He's a business distraction not a multiplier in his current state. He may be redeemable to the Tesla customer base but not now or in the next year. 
2. I don't believe there's $$ to make new products, so that means revamping what you have. Redo the CyberDumpster such that it's more traditional and useful, then cut the price as low as you can go to move that product and regain market share.
3. Stop promising. Capn Ketamine is now a joke for his empty promises in business and government. Sadly, Tesla is collateral damage in that.
4. Repair Tesla's image. Roll back Tesla to what it was. A company that EV buyers could be proud to own. Eco concerns, fair bargaining, solid product, and bleeding edge. 
5. Apologize. Tell people Tesla was led down the wrong path. Promise to do better and then demonstrate that with many ecological actions and a hard U-turn against the current administration. They're not doing Tesla any good anyway with tariffs and anti-EV rhetoric. 

Any other ideas? What would it take to get you to buy a Tesla today? <said in sleazy sales guy voice.>

In reply to VolvoHeretic :

If I was watched 24/7 with a camera and every word was recorded, I'm sure it would be easy to say the same about me.  Probably about you, too.

EDIT: I'm not saying he's not a weird, awkward dude.  He is.  I've said it many times over.  No one seemed to care about this before public opinion of him changed. 

Buying a car is a mix of emotion and fact.  In the beginning most Tesla buyers were making the decision mostly on emotion and less on fact.  Now the emotion part has tanked sales and the fact part is becoming much weaker.  Competition, build quality, odometer games, auto drive, cybertruck ugliness(OK that is an emotion) effect the fact part of a buyer's brain.

One solution might be getting rid of Elon and improving the technical side of the company.

Another might be letting Elon be Elon and pushing sales to the MAGA types.  They buy anything if packaged for them.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Driven5 said:

What Elon (and his team) found is that there is apparently more than 10x less waste than he claimed, and was brought in to find.

The thing that both sides ignore all the time is that the vast majority of Federal spending goes to one of three categories -- Social Security/Medicare, Defense spending, and paying interest on the national debt.  Anything that doesn't fundamentally change one of those is just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

 

I'd love to have a more detailed conversation about these two posts, but I just dont believe its possible on this forum.

In reply to Xceler8x :

Apparently Musk only owns about 20.5% of Tesla, so it is possible they could oust him.

I think you are correct that they would need to make a clear break from him. I think they then need to do a lot to communicate explicitly and implicitly that Tesla is no longer "The Elon Musk Company". March out a new leader (and then have them fade back into the background), new rhetoric, new design language. All expressing a clear new vision.

This is something that does not happen overnight.

TravisTheHuman said:

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Driven5 said:

What Elon (and his team) found is that there is apparently more than 10x less waste than he claimed, and was brought in to find.

The thing that both sides ignore all the time is that the vast majority of Federal spending goes to one of three categories -- Social Security/Medicare, Defense spending, and paying interest on the national debt.  Anything that doesn't fundamentally change one of those is just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

 

I'd love to have a more detailed conversation about these two posts, but I just dont believe its possible on this forum.

Possible, yes. 

Allowed, no.

Scotty Con Queso said:

In reply to VolvoHeretic :

If I was watched 24/7 with a camera and every word was recorded, I'm sure it would be easy to say the same about me.  Probably about you, too.

EDIT: I'm not saying he's not a weird, awkward dude.  He is.  I've said it many times over.  No one seemed to care about this before public opinion of him changed. 

Elon Musk had a lot of detractors well before his foray into politics. I was certainly one of them. There were a lot of social commentators that were highly critical of him and his promises for a while. At least since the tesla Semi-cab and the Cybertruck blew past their initially claimed launch dates with no obvious signs of development progress. Many years ago, I was having arguments with my dad who thinks Musk is a visionary, and I was arguing that he wants to create a Cyberpunk world, because he thinks it's aspirational and not dystopian.

Even at my weirdest, I'm still not as weird as Elon Musk. You'd have to have cameras watching me in secret as I hang out with my closest friends playing Dungeons and Dragons in absolute privacy. Which we only act that goofy because we're in absolute privacy. If I had the resources of Elon Musk - I'd have a marketing firm orchestrating things around me to control what my public image was.

Elon Musk brings that publicity on himself. He goes out of his way to get public attention because he wants to be watched. You don't see the CEO's of basically any other car manufacturing or even tech companies in front of that much media. Even Jeff Bezos is not, nor was Steve Jobs. 

I have no sympathy for him going out of his way to make a fool of himself.

Hopping into this way late... 

I always think back to my first impression of Tesla. Back around 2017, I drove a coworker's Model S P90D. It was the top of the line model at the time with all the options. As soon as I sat in it, I noticed everything felt "crunchy", kind of like if you sat in a concept car or a car made by an appliance company that didn't know how to build cars yet. It just didn't feel right or ready for primetime. And that feeling carried over into EVERYTHING from the seats to the infotainment. That said, it was interesting, and it was FAST. It made you feel weightless at full tilt! And the self-driving stuff was weird but functional. But I said then that once the major automakers catch up, they would have to ride on that cult status loyalty to maintain a foothold in the industry, otherwise they would get smoked. 

Fast forward to today, and the de facto face of the company soured the largest portion of his customer base to the point where people are ditching them for other stuff, sometimes, at a loss, just to disassociate themselves from owning one. There are also people vandalizing the cars directly because of Elon's antics. Not sure about you guys, but I don't see people vandalizing Hyundai Ioniq 5's and Rivian R1's anywhere. Elon's polarizing politics may have caused Tesla to lose the very people they have been courting since the beginning. There's really no sugarcoating it. The quality stuff is a factor as well, but not nearly as high a factor as Elon's behavior and actions. If Tesla was smart, they would oust him ASAP and distance themselves as far as they can. I don't think that will ever happen; the ship has sailed with getting that customer base back. Whether you agree with what he's doing or not, you have to see that it's a really dumb business idea to alienate a very large portion of your customers. Then again, they may not care. 

Not only that, but the big car manufacturers have not only caught up, they have surpassed Tesla in a lot of ways, including the court of public opinion. For example, GM has a simple-but-ingenious ad campaign right now that talks about how you can buy an Equinox EV at the same dealer you've been going to for years and get it serviced there just like you did with all your other cars. People fear change, and getting into an EV is a HUGE change in itself, so reminding customers that the buying/service stuff doesn't change should go a long way for a lot of customers. I've sampled a number of EVs myself made by the big manufacturers, and none of them felt crunchy or weird like Teslas do. I just don't see them catching up to where they were in the market. 

That said, Tesla has a lot of data collected from customers, and data is power these days. Companies who wield data can do all sorts of things with it, including monetizing it. They are likely already doing it, with the car business as a front and source of revenue. That said, the car business, which is the source of ire for many, may be expendable once they amp up their data business. Who knows. 

C/N: I think Tesla as a car company is cooked. Blame Elon, and blame the rest of the market for catching up. Maybe they don't care. 

I'm not sure that all of this is Elon's fault. Mach E's are piling up on Ford's lot and nobody over there is doing Nazi salutes. Fisker went bankrupt. Canoo went bankrupt. Stellantis is shutting down factories as their lots fill up with unsold cars. The $7,500 tax credit is going away. Jeff Bezos is introducing the Slate which is the next cool thing and makes the Cybertruck look like last year's cool thing. Then the economy is slowing down and there is a lot if confusion over whether EVs are really the future or just a fad. More competition and fewer buyers.

Elon should probably step down as CEO of Tesla in favor of some boring accounting guy and go down to Boca Chica to build his rockets. Maybe he could redeem himself by going to Mars.

Beer Baron 🍺 said:

Scotty Con Queso said:

In reply to VolvoHeretic :

If I was watched 24/7 with a camera and every word was recorded, I'm sure it would be easy to say the same about me.  Probably about you, too.

EDIT: I'm not saying he's not a weird, awkward dude.  He is.  I've said it many times over.  No one seemed to care about this before public opinion of him changed. 

Elon Musk had a lot of detractors well before his foray into politics. I was certainly one of them. There were a lot of social commentators that were highly critical of him and his promises for a while. At least since the tesla Semi-cab and the Cybertruck blew past their initially claimed launch dates with no obvious signs of development progress. Many years ago, I was having arguments with my dad who thinks Musk is a visionary, and I was arguing that he wants to create a Cyberpunk world, because he thinks it's aspirational and not dystopian.

Even at my weirdest, I'm still not as weird as Elon Musk. You'd have to have cameras watching me in secret as I hang out with my closest friends playing Dungeons and Dragons in absolute privacy. Which we only act that goofy because we're in absolute privacy. If I had the resources of Elon Musk - I'd have a marketing firm orchestrating things around me to control what my public image was.

Elon Musk brings that publicity on himself. He goes out of his way to get public attention because he wants to be watched. You don't see the CEO's of basically any other car manufacturing or even tech companies in front of that much media. Even Jeff Bezos is not, nor was Steve Jobs. 

I have no sympathy for him going out of his way to make a fool of himself.

I agree with both of you.  That said, I'm not even a Republican but I noticed that as soon as Elon started endorsing Trump many media sources began a character assassination campaign against him.

My MIL put a "I BOUGHT THIS BEFORE ELON WENT CRAZY" bumper sticker on her Tesla.  Yesterday I heard someone joking about putting "I BOUGHT THIS BEFORE I KNEW HE WAS A NAZI" stickers on VWs and Porsches in response.

We live in strange times.

In reply to Beer Baron 🍺 :

This is a really good take on him and one I hadn't considered.  Appreciate the comment. 

My opinion of Elon is pretty neutral. But one thing is for certain, as an engineer. I would never ever want to work for him. 

Scotty Con Queso said:

In reply to VolvoHeretic :

If I was watched 24/7 with a camera and every word was recorded, I'm sure it would be easy to say the same about me.  Probably about you, too.

EDIT: I'm not saying he's not a weird, awkward dude.  He is.  I've said it many times over.  No one seemed to care about this before public opinion of him changed. 

It isnt just that he is watched 24/7. He, very literally, changed all of his personality.  You can find twitter posts from 5ish years ago when he was loudly campaigning for LGBTQ rights, when he was firmly on the other side of the political spectrum.  He called out for things he is actively fighting against now.  He was "the woke agenda" that he now claims to fight against.

Between now and then something happened.  Too many drugs? Too much... something?  Not sure what it was, but his personality and core beliefs did a complete 180.  

Edit: that personality shift is something I'd really like to know more about. What happened, who did he meet, what changed him?

Scotty Con Queso said:

In reply to VolvoHeretic :

EDIT: I'm not saying he's not a weird, awkward dude.  He is.  I've said it many times over.  No one seemed to care about this before public opinion of him changed. 

Not true in our case. We shopped for an EV in mid-2023 and ended up buying a Hyundai Ioniq6. The field of cars we considered was every EV available at the time except for Tesla. Neither my wife nor I would consider one. 

nderwater said:

Beer Baron 🍺 said:

Scotty Con Queso said:

In reply to VolvoHeretic :

If I was watched 24/7 with a camera and every word was recorded, I'm sure it would be easy to say the same about me.  Probably about you, too.

EDIT: I'm not saying he's not a weird, awkward dude.  He is.  I've said it many times over.  No one seemed to care about this before public opinion of him changed. 

Elon Musk had a lot of detractors well before his foray into politics. I was certainly one of them. There were a lot of social commentators that were highly critical of him and his promises for a while. At least since the tesla Semi-cab and the Cybertruck blew past their initially claimed launch dates with no obvious signs of development progress. Many years ago, I was having arguments with my dad who thinks Musk is a visionary, and I was arguing that he wants to create a Cyberpunk world, because he thinks it's aspirational and not dystopian.

Even at my weirdest, I'm still not as weird as Elon Musk. You'd have to have cameras watching me in secret as I hang out with my closest friends playing Dungeons and Dragons in absolute privacy. Which we only act that goofy because we're in absolute privacy. If I had the resources of Elon Musk - I'd have a marketing firm orchestrating things around me to control what my public image was.

Elon Musk brings that publicity on himself. He goes out of his way to get public attention because he wants to be watched. You don't see the CEO's of basically any other car manufacturing or even tech companies in front of that much media. Even Jeff Bezos is not, nor was Steve Jobs. 

I have no sympathy for him going out of his way to make a fool of himself.

I agree with both of you.  That said, I'm not even a Republican but I noticed that as soon as Elon started endorsing Trump many media sources began a character assassination campaign against him.

My MIL put a "I BOUGHT THIS BEFORE ELON WENT CRAZY" bumper sticker on her Tesla.  Yesterday I heard someone joking about putting "I BOUGHT THIS BEFORE I KNEW HE WAS A NAZI" stickers on VWs and Porsches in response.

We live in strange times.

I think that you got the sequence a bit off there. Those bumper stickers came out not when Musk started associating with Trump, but after the election and DOGE - which is indelibly associated with Musk began their work. The "Elon is a nazi" trope is just another manifestation of our crazy age. 

Musk owns 12.8 percent of Tesla and I agree that at this point a separation would be best, but coming up with 98 billion dollars to buy him out would be a bit....problematic.

Scotty Con Queso said:

In reply to Beer Baron 🍺 :

This is a really good take on him and one I hadn't considered.  Appreciate the comment. 

My opinion of Elon is pretty neutral. But one thing is for certain, as an engineer. I would never ever want to work for him. 

Agreed on that take for sure.

I've been tangentially involved with SpaceX a few times in the early-mid 2010s, and those dudes had NO LIFE allowed outside of work.   Shuttle into the facility from the parking garage a few miles away, and the norm was 12-14 hour days onsite with constant email/text availability outside of that.

I've never thought he was a good (even decent?) engineer, but he definitely had enough business acumen and money backing to allow the crazier engineers to try cool stuff which I thought was awesome early on, but started losing credibility the more he talked in public about things I'm familiar with.   My personal tipping point around the dude was when he called the cave rescuer guy a pedophile on twitter just because he didn't use his submarine.   That was just weird.

On topic, though, I agree that although the drivetrain tech is pretty awesome, I've never sat in a Tesla that felt better put together than 80s Chevy like others have said above. Squeaks, rattles, wind noise, etc.   Part of that is the bar is a lot higher in an electric car because you can't just hide it with an exhaust/lack of sound deadening as was done in a lot of cheaper cars.   Electric cars are for sure fast, though!  

nderwater said:

I agree with both of you.  That said, I'm not even a Republican but I noticed that as soon as Elon started endorsing Trump many media sources began a character assassination campaign against him.

My MIL put a "I BOUGHT THIS BEFORE ELON WENT CRAZY" bumper sticker on her Tesla.  Yesterday I heard someone joking about putting "I BOUGHT THIS BEFORE I KNEW HE WAS A NAZI" stickers on VWs and Porsches in response.

Anyone who steps into politics - especially presidential politics - the media is going to attempt to assassinate their character. That's how it is. (Not getting too partisan, but...) Some people have more skeletons in their closets like Musk or the Clintons, and others have fewer like Walz and W. Bush.

If you don't want to be put under a media microscope - don't put yourself on a presidential stage.

Elon has arguably always been "crazy". He is a narcissist with a callous disregard for the health, safety, and general humanity of others. Always has been. People just had not been paying close attention before, and/or were quick to excuse it with justifications about "doing more good than harm".

I had a wonderful time hooning a performance model 3, and have been in other Teslas, but find them sterile in the way that I used to think of German cars, but much more so. Surprisingly, in town, I found the Chevy Bolt to be a more enjoyable companion.

Mr_Asa said:

It isnt just that he is watched 24/7. He, very literally, changed all of his personality.  You can find twitter posts from 5ish years ago when he was loudly campaigning for LGBTQ rights, when he was firmly on the other side of the political spectrum.  He called out for things he is actively fighting against now.  He was "the woke agenda" that he now claims to fight against.

Between now and then something happened.  Too many drugs? Too much... something?  Not sure what it was, but his personality and core beliefs did a complete 180.  

 

Edit: that personality shift is something I'd really like to know more about. What happened, who did he meet, what changed him?

His personality did NOT change. His *positions* changed.

Elon Musk is a narcissist. He is a con salesman.

Narcissists care about being adored and idolized. They want everyone looking up to them in awe and telling them they're the best. They shift and change their positions on a dime to do whatever will get people too heap praise and adoration upon them. If they ever perceive you as "turning against them", they will suddenly pivot and call you out as the worst person ever.

Musk's core personality and drive behind what he does and how he does it has NOT changed. He has become more brazen as he's become more wealthy/powerful and has cut down his entourage to only the most sycophantic followers, and so has regulated his natural tendencies less.

He's also pivoted to preaching to the people who heap the most praise on him. When that stopped being the folks who want to save the planet because they care about the environment and such, he stopped championing the causes that they praised him for. His new fans were tech-bros who want a "disruptor" who moves fast and breaks things regardless of people's feelings (arguably taking glee in watching "haters get butt hurt because they're jealous..."). So his championed positions have become the ones that the new followers praise him for.

But his personality, core beliefs, and central driving motivation have remained constant. His political expressions are just no more "core beliefs" to him than whether Chevy or Ford is better to a muscle car guy.

In reply to Beer Baron 🍺 :

You could swap Elon Musk's name with the leader of any political party and the argument would be the same.

People pick sides in this and they never seem to realize that the people in charge don't give a damn about the proles. The only job a politician has is to get elected. After that, the job is to get re-elected and stay around as long as possible to lie, cheat and pillage their wiggly black guts out.

"Oh, but MY team is different"