http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1314534/Arrests-burning-Koran-9-11-posted-online.html
Two men were arrested on suspicion of stirring racial hatred, and have since been released on bail.
As distasteful as I find what they did, and I do agree it will only be used to stir up Islamic extremists, i'm really getting tired of all this "Don't anger the Muslims!" behavior.
The state that brought us the nanny has been a nanny state for some time now.
They building a Cultural Center there too?
Strange. Islamic terrorists start blowing stuff up in the name of Allah. Suddenly it's not ok to burn the Koran... because they might blow stuff up. How long is it really, before more governments start bending to the will of this extremist group? Seems to me the smart thing would be to be more of the line of "Screw you, I'm not scared of you" and go about your business, instead of admitting fear, because that's exactly what these yahoos want.
mndsm wrote: Suddenly it's not ok to burn the Koran... because they might blow stuff up.
You make it sound as if it was always ok to burn someones holy book. As if they were previously sold as kindling and quickly pulled from the shelves when it hit the news.
The burning of the Koran causes outrage and alarm because it is an act of hatred. Pure and simple. One that is so clearly aimed to egg on one group of people and humiliate or anger another.
And that's not what I meant about it- so let me try and clarify.
There are plenty of acts of hatred out there. More than you or I could ever hope to quell. Unfortunately, humankind as a whole is kinda hateful like that. Shiites and Sunnis, Israel and Palestine, etc etc. The point is, this stuff going on every day. As much as I abhor it, I can't really stop it. But suddenly you have one single act that (at least in my opinion) would not have normally garnered NEAR the attention that it does today, due to one group choosing to commit a crime, and another group choosing to commit an act of hatred as revenge. I don't support it in the least, I think I agree with OP on the whole "Don't stir up the Muslims topic". Seems to me that if you do something hateful towards a specific demographic (while not right, or proper, etc) you should expect the same in return.
Stupid example- Another forum I actually moderate is kind of famous for slinging momma jokes. EVERYONE is fair game, unless you express that you don't wish to be included. No big deal, BUT- don't start slinging em out there. You can't do something and expect not to have a reaction. (besides, he's terrible at momma jokes anyhow).
If they had a burned a Bible, do you think they would have been arrested?
I'm pretty sure that they would have been, especially if they had been wearing beards while doing so.
Slightly less flippant answer - burning books is always wrong (IMHO), no matter what the contents is, and that's doubly so for holy books of any sort of religion. I'm sorry, you can't have freedom of religion without mutual tolerance (and that's something that seems to be missing in this debate) and there are boundaries you don't cross in a civilised society.
BoxheadTim wrote: I'm pretty sure that they would have been, especially if they had been wearing beards while doing so. Slightly less flippant answer - burning books is always wrong (IMHO), no matter what the contents is, and that's doubly so for holy books of any sort of religion. I'm sorry, you can't have freedom of religion without mutual tolerance (and that's something that seems to be missing in this debate) and there are boundaries you don't cross in a civilised society.
Boundaries that who doesn't cross? So it's okay to cross those boundaries so long as we don't claim to be "civilised?" If we make no claim of being "civilised" then we might even go so far as to do unspeakable violence and not be guilty of crossing boundaries? But we who are "civilised" must exercise restraint when it comes to burning books. Oh yes. That would be un-"civilised!"
You guys all act like burning a book that's holy to a few extremists is ok, as if it's not gonna piss off the VAST MAJORITY of Muslims who happen to not be extremists. An entire group of people cannot be held responsible for the shiny happy people of their group.
Has anyone here ever travelled the world while GWB was our president? Did you ever get annoyed with how many people would assume that just cause your president was a berkeleying moron, that meant you should be treated like a zoo animal as well?
Grow the berkeley up.
Even in America freedom of speech doesn't cover hate crimes which is what this is being treated as, because that's what it is.
As I said, I find what they did personally distasteful. But, I don't see how it's a hate crime. I feel like acts like this walk that fine line of expression. Unless they tried to incite people to out and commit acts of violence, I don't see how you can arrest them for a hate crime. Also i feel like if this had been a bible or Torah, it wouldn't have even made news.
Ya'll are implying that outlawing "hate" is a perfectly acceptable thing to do. What else should we then outlaw? I think if we outlawed "stoopid" we would solve a whole lot more problems. Next up, we can outlaw "annoying" and maybe even "irritating."
Personally, let them burn all the Korans they want. If they paid for them and don't start something else on fire doing it. I don't care. I also don't care if they piss off both the non-extreemist Moslems.
Oh, and everyone hated us during the W years not because of W, but because of the news media constantly dumping on W and blaming him for everything from the latest hurricane to their acne. Now that they got their savior, The O, elected president, guess what? The rest of the world now hates us because they think we're all stoopid. Just wait for them to make stoopid illegal.
In reply to Dr. Hess:
um I would say that the world hating us had a lot more to do with the wars we were in then any domestic policy or media E36 M3 about that. But I do argee that it shouldn't be made illegal to burn books (as distasteful that is to burn any book).
Drewsifer wrote: As distasteful as I find what they did, and I do agree it will only be used to stir up Islamic extremists, i'm really getting tired of all this "Don't anger the Muslims!" behavior.
Hey, any of you guys ever see the movie Groundhog Day?
mndsm wrote: Seems to me the smart thing would be to be more of the line of "Screw you, I'm not scared of you" and go about your business, instead of admitting fear, because that's exactly what these yahoos want.
Yeah. But we didn't do that. They flew planes into buildings and yes, we should have gone about our business. We didn't. We gave them what they wanted.
Don't anger the Muslims? I'm bet burning their books angers them. But I'm absolutely sure dropping bombs on them and invading their countries and toppeling their governments anger them. We're bending over for them? Jesus, how many of them do we have to kill before we feel like we've been macho enough?
That's my opinion. If you have another opinion that's absolutely fine with me. This is America and we're all allowed to have our opinions. Me thinking something different from you or you thinking something different from me doesn't make either of us stupid, un-American or anthing else. It makes us damn lucky people who live in a free country where we're allowed to dissagree.
I think you guys got the general idea just right - it's an american right to openly display hate rallies to burn flags and bibles, it's expression! I don't remember why you don't happen to see as many burning flags, bibles, and crosses like back in the good ol' days...why can't xenophobes hate with fox news-inspired generalizations of people in peace?
captainzib wrote: Even in America freedom of speech doesn't cover hate crimes which is what this is being treated as, because that's what it is.
Burning a book is a "hate crime?"
Really?
Have we become that numb to real crime that burning a BOOK is a hate crime?
captainzib wrote: Even in America freedom of speech doesn't cover hate crimes which is what this is being treated as, because that's what it is.
Oh, please! By now anyone with a brain has figured out that "hate crime" is a Liberal construct designed to legitimize the indefensible. I'd say you're on pretty shaky ideological ground.
1988RedT2 wrote: ...By now anyone with a brain has figured out that "hate crime" is a Liberal construct designed to legitimize the indefensible....
"hate crime" legitimizes the indefensible?
So when someone goes out and kills someone because they are black / gay / jewish / American etc., the liberals created the term / definition "hate crime" to legitimize that action?
The only thing hate crime legitimizes is the increased sentences for crimes defined as such. Are you saying increased sentences for such crimes are indefensible?
z31maniac wrote:captainzib wrote: Even in America freedom of speech doesn't cover hate crimes which is what this is being treated as, because that's what it is.Burning a book is a "hate crime?" Really? Have we become that numb to real crime that burning a BOOK is a hate crime?
Books have words, words have meanings, when burning said book screams, "I hate Muslims", it can be construed as a hate crime.
The only reason this really sparks my ire, is because people need to stop blaming Muslims for 9/11. The attackers happened to be Muslim, but blaming the third largest religion for something like that is a little absurd.
I've always felt if someone buys a book, then they should have the right to burn it. If they start burning muslums, then they should be arrested. Of course, I would never burn a book. Unless it looked at me funny...
Rufledt wrote: I've always felt if someone buys a book, then they should have the right to burn it. If they start burning muslums, then they should be arrested.
Guess you have to draw the line somewhere. But really, take away my right to burn Muslims, where does it stop?
captainzib wrote: The only reason this really sparks my ire, is because people need to stop blaming Muslims for 9/11. The attackers happened to be Muslim, but blaming the third largest religion for something like that is a little absurd.
This. I'm not muslim myself, but I don't blame the religion. It's the terrorists, the extremists who are the problem. And really, if the whole of islam was the problem, then we'd have a lot more problems like this. There are A LOT of muslims running around, and only a few of them have blown our E36 M3 up.
Also this happened in the UK, which is worth noting, because Muslims are far better integrated into UK society then they are here. When Islam stops being the black sheep of American society, people will start to understand why E36 M3 like this doesn't fly.
captainzib wrote: The only reason this really sparks my ire, is because people need to stop blaming Muslims for 9/11. The attackers happened to be Muslim, but blaming the third largest religion for something like that is a little absurd.
Having been to Iraq twice, and lived in very close proximity with the Iraqi's I worked with, I have a lot of respect for their culture and religion. It pisses me off so much when I hear people say, "Well Muslims hate America". No they don't. A extreme minority did. Most Muslim people I've met in my, admittedly some what limited, life have been extremely friendly and nice people.
And to whoever brought up us being in Iraq and Afghanistan right now, I don't see how that pertains to the discussion at hand. I'm talking about people (Schools, police departments, newspapers) being afraid to insult one group of people for fear of exploding packages showing up at their door step. The topic of 'should we be over there' is a whole nother can of worms.
captainzib wrote: You guys all act like burning a book that's holy to a few extremists is ok, as if it's not gonna piss off the VAST MAJORITY of Muslims who happen to not be extremists. An entire group of people cannot be held responsible for the shiny happy people of their group.
I say they CAN be held responsible if that group of people make ABSOLUTELY no effort to repudiate the despicable acts committed by the few...and even more so if they use their bases (the mosques) to lend support to those groups
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