"How come I'm failing Mr.G?"
"Well, you got 40% in the first term, and 30% in the second term."
"Ah, but Mr.G, 40 plus 30 is ~clearly~ more than 50!"
Not to be outdone, an Admin asked me about a student who got 40% the year before, and the next year (course repeat, only I excused the assignments that he already ~did~ complete) failed it worse with a 35%. Admin wanted to add the 40% and 35% and give him 50% so kid could graduate. Whatever. What. Ever.
But I'm not bitter.
pushrod36 wrote:HappyAndy wrote: In reply to pushrod36: 1. No child Left behind 2. Teaching to the test 3. Decline of non core academic subjects, it's hard to quantify how much kids learn from art, music, shop and hone-ec, but as this thread shows, they suffer from not having them. 4. Teaching "facts" or "correct answers" instead of reasoning, comprehension and logic. (BTW, collages do this too).I get all of this, but my thinking about it is that if kids are not taking art, music, home-economics, etc. I don't understand where that time is being spent. I can't imagine it takes too long to teach test answers. If that's the case then it seems like every student should have some understanding of calculus.
Quality of time spent teaching/learning, not just quantity of time. You can teach a kid more in 1 hour that is motivated to be there than you can teach a kid in 2 hours who doesn't care.
All those electives give kids a reason to want to be at school. The motivation of wanting to do shop, or art, or home ec carries over to the rest of school. It's like having a job you care about that you get to do things you enjoy. Even if most of your time is scut work, that scut work is more pleasant.
Lots of things we need to add and/or improve in the educational system. Can we all agree on a few to chuck?
Calculating the area of a cone? Holy crap is that useless E36 M3 that I've never ONCE needed in my life. In fact most of the advanced math stuff has done nothing for me and given how many young people can't even make change without the cash register telling them the answer the time would be better spent reinforcing the basics.
History taught as a series of dry facts. History is so cool when you learn the cause and effect that led to each event, but so many teachers just list a bunch of years and happenings. Do I really need to know the year of the Magna Carta? But a discussion of WHY it was written is much more elucidateing.
KyAllroad wrote: History taught as a series of dry facts. History is so cool when you learn the cause and effect that led to each event, but so many teachers just list a bunch of years and happenings. Do I really need to know the year of the Magna Carta? But a discussion of WHY it was written is much more elucidateing.
So much yes.
Teaching kids that history is a bunch of dates and that the people in history were a series of heroes and villains is a great way to build crap citizens.
Basic auto repair, home ec, real-world finances
KyAllroad wrote: Calculating the area of a cone? Holy crap is that useless E36 M3 that I've never ONCE needed in my life. In fact most of the advanced math stuff has done nothing for me and given how many young people can't even make change without the cash register telling them the answer the time would be better spent reinforcing the basics.
Perhaps it was useless to you, but to many others, who are very capable in an engineering kind of job, knowing that is very useful.
It's not the specific of the actual area of a cone (although, that is really important for some), it's the idea of how to come up with that and what it means.
I never used any of the concepts of differential equations at work, but I know what they mean and do. So I can use the ideas while looking at data.
It's great that people are focused on the non-college path for education, but that does not mean it should be at the expense of advanced math classes. Or even advanced history or language classes as well.
DaewooOfDeath wrote:KyAllroad wrote: History taught as a series of dry facts. History is so cool when you learn the cause and effect that led to each event, but so many teachers just list a bunch of years and happenings. Do I really need to know the year of the Magna Carta? But a discussion of WHY it was written is much more elucidateing.So much yes. Teaching kids that history is a bunch of dates and that the people in history were a series of heroes and villains is a great way to build crap citizens.
Especially when the books neglect to come with the asterisk "history book written by winner" cuts a lot of the truth and meaning of history out of history.
alfadriver wrote:KyAllroad wrote: Calculating the area of a cone? Holy crap is that useless E36 M3 that I've never ONCE needed in my life. In fact most of the advanced math stuff has done nothing for me and given how many young people can't even make change without the cash register telling them the answer the time would be better spent reinforcing the basics.Perhaps it was useless to you, but to many others, who are very capable in an engineering kind of job, knowing that is very useful. It's not the specific of the actual area of a cone (although, that is really important for some), it's the idea of how to come up with that and what it means. I never used any of the concepts of differential equations at work, but I know what they mean and do. So I can use the ideas while looking at data. It's great that people are focused on the non-college path for education, but that does not mean it should be at the expense of advanced math classes. Or even advanced history or language classes as well.
My point was that at the essence - school should teach everyone basic reading, writing, arithmetic, life skills that everyone needs like banking/cooking/eating/healing and the duty of a citizen in a democratic republic. Anything beyond that is by choice and aptitude. Everyone needs the basic tool set but when KY says that calculating the area of a cone is useless - it probably was for him. Maybe his time would have been better spent learning a language or some other endeavor where his aptitude would lead him. I have used the information in math and science classes many times over and could have used more but couldn't rearrange things - so I got other things that were useless (to me).
The bottom line is that we don't really cover the basics. The one size fits all issue is a different one.
alfadriver wrote:KyAllroad wrote: Calculating the area of a cone? Holy crap is that useless E36 M3 that I've never ONCE needed in my life. In fact most of the advanced math stuff has done nothing for me and given how many young people can't even make change without the cash register telling them the answer the time would be better spent reinforcing the basics.Perhaps it was useless to you, but to many others, who are very capable in an engineering kind of job, knowing that is very useful. It's not the specific of the actual area of a cone (although, that is really important for some), it's the idea of how to come up with that and what it means. I never used any of the concepts of differential equations at work, but I know what they mean and do. So I can use the ideas while looking at data. It's great that people are focused on the non-college path for education, but that does not mean it should be at the expense of advanced math classes. Or even advanced history or language classes as well.
Additionally,
The classes that teach these things are useful as one of the first stepping stones in a child's career path. How will one know that they are adept at math or science if they don't have to take the basics? Engineers don't just choose to become engineers with only a background in algebra.
This of course applies to far more than math, engineers, and the area of a cone.
alfadriver wrote:KyAllroad wrote: Calculating the area of a cone? Holy crap is that useless E36 M3 that I've never ONCE needed in my life. In fact most of the advanced math stuff has done nothing for me and given how many young people can't even make change without the cash register telling them the answer the time would be better spent reinforcing the basics.Perhaps it was useless to you, but to many others, who are very capable in an engineering kind of job, knowing that is very useful. It's not the specific of the actual area of a cone (although, that is really important for some), it's the idea of how to come up with that and what it means. I never used any of the concepts of differential equations at work, but I know what they mean and do. So I can use the ideas while looking at data. It's great that people are focused on the non-college path for education, but that does not mean it should be at the expense of advanced math classes. Or even advanced history or language classes as well.
I had a challenging childhood and once was asked to write a personal essay in an English class (I’ll guess 9th grade but that whole period is really foggy).
Anyway, I agonized over what to write as anything that remotely approached the truth would have been far too dark and likely triggered staff attention. I did my best to get through the assignment and wound up with a “B”. I remember looking at that “B” and wondering about the assessment process that produced it…what criteria did the teacher use…did the teacher take their limitations of objectivity into consideration…what if everything was held constant except a different name was put on the paper...if 10 teachers independently scored the paper, what would the distribution of grades be.
At that moment, a scientist was born…the subjectivity, the randomness, the Bull E36 M3 that dictates so much of our outcomes was strikingly clear to me and I committed myself to a life of attacking it. I don’t just like math and science, I don’t just make a living from math and science, I need math and science to construct a world as devoid of noise and confusion and ambiguity and Bull E36 M3 as possible.
My point, if it isn’t clear, is that some of us literally need to exist in this space…wishy washy stuff is toxic to us. We’re inundated with stories about how “music saved someone” and ”art saved someone” and ”sports saved someone”…well, math and science saved me and that’s all I have to say about that.
In reply to Huckleberry:
ProDarwin has a good point- at some point, all of the basic classes need to be extended to help find out the aptitude of the student.
Also, to get to the point of calculating a volume of a cone, one needs to know the basics. If you know what the equation is, then you have to perform some pretty basic math to calculate it- which is the basics.
Driver's Ed combined with "How to Keep Your Hooptie Limping Along 101."
Consider the cost and procedures of maintenance, tools required and where to get decent ones for cheap, maybe a week learning how to lay down ugly but solid welds, shop labor rate VS time and effort to do at home, etc.
It's amazing how much money I've seen people piss away on complete hoopties simply because they don't want to or think they're unable to do the work themselves.
Also, I know it would probably be a logistics and pay nightmare, but why don't schools get the tech teachers together to host after-school "build sessions?" Even if a student isn't in a shop class, they could still have the opportunity to come down, learn a thing or two, pick up a hobby, and maybe even build something really cool.
We're getting pretty close to the point where a high school diploma is the academic equivalent of a "participation medal."
If/when they make taxpayer-funded "free college for everybody" a reality, we'll all have Bachelor's Degrees! We'll really be smart then. Uh, huh!
alfadriver wrote: In reply to Huckleberry: ProDarwin has a good point- at some point, all of the basic classes need to be extended to help find out the aptitude of the student. Also, to get to the point of calculating a volume of a cone, one needs to know the basics. If you know what the equation is, then you have to perform some pretty basic math to calculate it- which is the basics.
Everyone should have demonstrated competency in very basics by high school.
I had to meet certain standards to enter the EE program at PSU. One of those requirements was that I brought my calculus up to snuff before I started. I went to class over the summer to prove I had the chops. They used a qualification test to determine that. It's not terribly hard to determine if someone has the chops for specific courses they want to take. It's also not hard to allow them to be done with school if they want to after meeting the basic goals. It's kind of how things are done now in university and the work force. Just move it up a few years.
I would suggest that the "Basics" are not covered by the current curriculum. The OP asked what should be added and I proposed Critical Thinking, Nutrition/Food Prep, Personal Finance, Distilled Civics for the Voter and a few others. Instead of the current methodology of trying to teach some of these things by hiding them in arts or academic subjects that hit/miss ... I'm just suggesting calling the class by it's name and teaching it straight up as life skills that are necessary for living in the modern world. Maybe add "Bringing The Vagina To Climax" as well because that thing is seriously misunderstood and many years of trial and error, and disappointed women could be avoided.
In reply to Huckleberry:
In theory, the standardized tests should demonstrate the basic ability. But it's really not that good at it.
And other than the Home Ec class of food prep/nutrition, all of your other points should be able to fit into other classes. In HS, I had a class that covered finances- over a couple of weeks, we did the basics. We did big voter things, as well as modeled congresses. Critical thinking should be done in basic biology, chemistry, and math classes that are normally a basic requirement- IMHO, critical thinking should be shown in the context that it's required. Should even be done in a shop class.
I should stop- I don't have kids, so it doesn't really matter much to me. And for my direct replacement- if they are fresh out of college, they will be seniors in HS this year.
In reply to alfadriver:
What you are suggesting IS how it's done now. Not every kid belongs in biology or calculus or chemistry but every kid needs critical thinking at some point in their lives. So... make that part of the basics as a subject of it's own is really all I'm saying. Stop embedding the lessons in classes with other goals and make it a prerequisite to them. Organic Chemistry can assume that is covered and get on with the meat of the matter.
Being married thirty years now it would have helped if they had taught me how to read minds and how to understand women. I could use those skills daily.
Datsun310Guy wrote: Being married thirty years now it would have helped if they had taught me how to read minds and how to understand women. I could use those skills daily.
If you've been "successfully" married for 30 years you're being tasked with teaching that class.
Ethics.
"Adulting 101" how to budget, how to write a check, how to get an apartment (deposits, 1st and last month rent etc., utilities) How to write a resume How get and keep a job. The difference between a "job" and a "career" You know "Adulting" 
rob_lewis wrote: How to balance a checkbook [...]
mad_machine wrote: [...] balancing a chequebook [...]
SyntheticBlinkerFluid wrote: [...] how to balance a checkbook [...]
LopRacer wrote: how to write a check [...]
So, do you guys mean like, as part of history class? or what?
On a more serious note, I highly support a kind of critical thinking / serious comprehension element. Drill it into kids with every 'academic' type class - science, literature, politics. Make it mandatory, and make not to grasping it grounds for a failure. How to evaluate the legitimacy of information. What are proper sources. What are primary and secondary sources. How to tell if you're being fed bullE36 M3, or if the author is trying to lead you on or make you think a certain way. How to tell when people, including the government or big business or your own goddamn parents, say something false or misleading, and identify the implicit goal of the misdirection behind it. How to gracefully admit you're wrong, in the face of real evidence, and not turn your formerly righteous opinion into your entire berkeleying self identity, and how to deal with others who do.
I don't expect high schoolers to leave knowing everything, but they damn well should be able to know if they know something.
Maths should be mandatory to the point where kids won't be held back by something they didn't learn when they eventually decide on their career path. In my mind that means at least introductory calculus & linear algebra. Anyone leaving high school should be able to explain why "48÷2(9+3)=288" is wrong and the answer is unequivocally 12.
Oh yeah, I also absolutely support teaching art, music including a heavy component of music theory, and literature at all levels in high school. You never know what kid is going to be the next virtuoso, but it's a near sure thing that they won't be if they never get the chance to develop their talents.
...and no, music doesn't mean "marching band" or "supporting act for the sports team." And for god's sake don't assign the kids an instrument they may well hate and then force them to stick with it permanently until they get put off the whole thing. (Gee, could I be speaking from experience here?)
I'd also like to see some teaching on "self identity", namely how to form one that incorporates the core values & traits that define you, without getting sucked into cult tactics or nationalism. Think that doesn't need to be taught? Look around you. Maybe roll it into psychology.
Wait, teaching psychology to teenagers, right as they're going through contortions every day just to understand their own heads? Good lord! (Sound of popping monocles.)
I should probably go to bed now. :P
Datsun310Guy wrote: Being married thirty years now it would have helped if they had taught me how to read minds and how to understand women. I could use those skills daily.
And WHO is going to teach that?
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/385.On_BullE36 M3
This^
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