What, no thread on health care yet?

zomby woof wrote:

Toyman01 wrote:

zomby woof wrote:

Zomby woof said: I'm sure the people who work for the insurance companies are nice, but your health is not their first priority

This is what I meant. Do you want your health in their hands? I wouldn't.

Rather them than some government bureaucrat. Have you been to the DMV lately. There is nothing worse than dealing with an indifferent public servant.

We don't call it the DMV here, but yes, I am there regularly. The women that run the place kick ass. Have a question? Call them. Need to know how to get something done within the ministry? Call them. Need to know the loopholes in order to get your wacky vehicle on the road? They know it, and don't mind telling you. I'm going there today, and looking forward to it.

I had to stop by ours the other day to get a replacement drivers license. Mine was coming apart. All they had to do was print it out. $10 and a little over an hour later I had my license. Ours are government run and staffed by civil servants. Most of the time they won't answer questions. They just point to their stack of forms and let you figure it out yourself. When you guess wrong and fill out the wrong form, it's back to the back of the line while you fill them out again. I will admit they are better now than they were 10 years ago, but they still suck.

I guess Canadians are just better at everything. You keep your perfect system and I'll do my best to keep all my liberties.

Toyman01 wrote: I'll do my best to keep all my liberties.

Just for chuckles, and in the healthy and friendly spirit that this thread has managed to maintain throughout most of the 13 pages so far -- what liberties do you feel you have as an American that I don't have as a Canadian? And don't give me the "right to bear arms" response -- I can own guns, too, and there seems to be many variations in that "liberty" as there are states in your union.

Since when did having a rude DMV equate to one of those "cold, dead hands" liberties?

I go to the next county over--their DMV is about equidistant from my house as our county's, but the people there are extremely nice and helpful. I think it's like any other workplace, some have a crappy personality and some are inhabited by humans who know that happiness--their own included--is Job 1.

Margie

Marjorie Suddard wrote: Since when did having a rude DMV equate to one of those "cold, dead hands" liberties? I go to the next county over--their DMV is about equidistant from my house as our county's, but the people there are extremely nice and helpful. I think it's like any other workplace, some have a crappy personality and some are inhabited by humans who know that happiness--their own included--is Job 1. Margie

I am gonna have to agree with Margie here. I would have bought the DMV analogy until I moved to South Carolina. They let us fill out the forms (and helped!) at the counter, without sending us to the back of the line, like in NY. We got two cars registered, got two plates, got two new licenses that day, got a change of address, and my wife's name changed: 45 minutes on A SATURDAY AFTERNOON in and out.

But now I am really off topic.

tuna55 wrote:

Marjorie Suddard wrote: Since when did having a rude DMV equate to one of those "cold, dead hands" liberties? I go to the next county over--their DMV is about equidistant from my house as our county's, but the people there are extremely nice and helpful. I think it's like any other workplace, some have a crappy personality and some are inhabited by humans who know that happiness--their own included--is Job 1. Margie

I am gonna have to agree with Margie here. I would have bought the DMV analogy until I moved to South Carolina. They let us fill out the forms (and helped!) at the counter, without sending us to the back of the line, like in NY. We got two cars registered, got two plates, got two new licenses that day, got a change of address, and my wife's name changed: 45 minutes on A SATURDAY AFTERNOON in and out. But now I am really off topic.

I will 2nd this. SC has a great DMV.

Man, y'all musta got some good ones. I could bore you with the tale of the Jensen title, the title to my last MG which still had a wrong letter after 4 tries, my bud who got an off road only bike dualsported and legal for road use through SCDMV then they tried to take his tags back, I could go on for a while.

You want an even better analogy: go deal with the Forest Service for a couple of years then tell me if you want that same type of bureacracy premeating health care.

The point is that government generally creates deadwood bureacracy with people who shuffle paper and are marking time till retirement. Generally they cannot be fired except by doing something REALLY stupid. And even that is no guarantee. Want proof? Teachers' unions. (and boy did I just whack a big ol hornet's nest there.)

At least in this big ol' evil privatized system it's possible to hold someone accountable for laziness or incompetence.

Marjorie Suddard wrote: Since when did having a rude DMV equate to one of those "cold, dead hands" liberties? I go to the next county over--their DMV is about equidistant from my house as our county's, but the people there are extremely nice and helpful. I think it's like any other workplace, some have a crappy personality and some are inhabited by humans who know that happiness--their own included--is Job 1. Margie

Here in Pennsylvania we have a unique situation.

Up till about 10 years ago we could only deal with PennDOT when it came to most vehicle/driver services. You could go to a messenger service or dealer if you didn't want to go to Harrisburg and deal with the bored, surly folks in the basement of the PennDOT building, but that was mainly to get plates if you bought a car. For license renewal, etc, you had to either go up or mail it in.

Then PennDOT moved to a new building ...AND...they also privatized more of the services. Usually I go to the agency in my neighborhood, or sometimes I go to the PennDOT building. Amazingly it's a pleasant experience, I don't think I've waited more than 5 min to renew my registration. Amazing what some private competition will do...

ZOO wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: I'll do my best to keep all my liberties.

Just for chuckles, and in the healthy and friendly spirit that this thread has managed to maintain throughout most of the 13 pages so far -- what liberties do you feel you have as an American that I don't have as a Canadian? And don't give me the "right to bear arms" response -- I can own guns, too, and there seems to be many variations in that "liberty" as there are states in your union.

I will have to say that was a flippant remark. I don't know enough about the Canadian system to give you a good answer. Give me a week or so to study the Canadian government and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and I'll get back to you. Should be an interesting comparison.

About SC DMV: a few years ago they had the 'month' sticker printed in red. After a few months, the red would fade to where it was nearly illegible. You could renew your tags online or by mail and get the year sticker with the validation number but they would not mail a replacement month sticker. yeah, that was dumb as hell. You had to go in IN PERSON and stand in line to get a replacement 'month' sticker. The even worse parts of that: the new sticker faded just like the old ones did and it was quite possible to get a $50-$75 ticket for an illegible sticker.

Our DMV isn't bad, certainly nowhere near as bad as the ones closer to the city, but I'd bet everything I own, and the stuff the bank owns, that I could dramatically increase their efficiency as well as dramatically cutting their cost to operate in 7 days if given the opportunity to do so.

Private businesses (yes, insurance companies and doctors' offices too,) are motivated by profit. If you don't provide a good product, along with good customer service, at a reasonable price, someone else will.

Politicians are motivated by votes. They can make you all the empty promises in the world about what they're going to "give" you (using money they've confiscated from someone else,) with no intention of following through. As long as it keeps them in office a couple more years, the cash keeps flowing in.

I'd rather keep my money and choose who I give it to. But I guess all this crazy "logic" stuff just amounts to "E-THUGGERY." rolleyes.

93celicaGT2 wrote:

SVreX wrote:

MrJoshua wrote:

SVreX wrote:

MrJoshua wrote: $37 a month here Mitchell, and im ooooooooooooold compared to you.

Please tell more.

38yo non smoker with mild asthma as my only health concern. BCBS of Florida Blue Options BC 090 BS 590 $250 deductible in network $750 out of network Coinsurance (they pay) 80% in network, 60% out of network Max out of pocket $2500 in network, $5000 out of network Max lifetime benefit $5,000,000 Well child Coinsurance (they pay) 80% no benefit maximum Emergency room deductible $2500 (which quite intentionally is the same as my max out of pocket so after $2500 I am 100% covered) Outpatient/inpatient/specialist/labs/physician visits standard $250/$750 deductible and 80% in network 60% out of network coinsurance with $2500 max out of pocket.

Do they sell out of state?

Similar plans are available through most BCBS states.

Not for $37 a month they aren't.

We know the reform bill does nothing to address cost issues.

The NYT has published an article that covers changes within the medical profession, changes occuring independently of legislation. And costs may rise higher still:

More Doctors Giving Up Private Practices http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/health/policy/26docs.html

Just FYI. List of boards and commissions created by the Obamacare bill. Keep in mind though, none of this will cost a dime, and I'm sure they'll all run with squeaky clean gov't efficiency!

1. Grant program for consumer assistance offices (Section 1002, p. 37)
2. Grant program for states to monitor premium increases (Section 1003, p. 42)
3. Committee to review administrative simplification standards (Section 1104, p. 71)
4. Demonstration program for state wellness programs (Section 1201, p. 93)
5. Grant program to establish state Exchanges (Section 1311(a), p. 130)
6. State American Health Benefit Exchanges (Section 1311(b), p. 131)
7. Exchange grants to establish consumer navigator programs (Section 1311(i), p. 150)
8. Grant program for state cooperatives (Section 1322, p. 169)
9. Advisory board for state cooperatives (Section 1322(b)(3), p. 173)
10. Private purchasing council for state cooperatives (Section 1322(d), p. 177)
11. State basic health plan programs (Section 1331, p. 201)
12. State-based reinsurance program (Section 1341, p. 226)
13. Program of risk corridors for individual and small group markets (Section 1342, p. 233)
14. Program to determine eligibility for Exchange participation (Section 1411, p. 267)
15. Program for advance determination of tax credit eligibility (Section 1412, p. 288)
16. Grant program to implement health IT enrollment standards (Section 1561, p. 370)
17. Federal Coordinated Health Care Office for dual eligible beneficiaries (Section 2602, p. 512)
18. Medicaid quality measurement program (Section 2701, p. 518)
19. Medicaid health home program for people with chronic conditions, and grants for planning same (Section 2703, p. 524)
20. Medicaid demonstration project to evaluate bundled payments (Section 2704, p. 532)
21. Medicaid demonstration project for global payment system (Section 2705, p. 536)
22. Medicaid demonstration project for accountable care organizations (Section 2706, p. 538)
23. Medicaid demonstration project for emergency psychiatric care (Section 2707, p. 540)
24. Grant program for delivery of services to individuals with postpartum depression (Section 2952(b), p. 591)
25. State allotments for grants to promote personal responsibility education programs (Section 2953, p. 596)
26. Medicare value-based purchasing program (Section 3001(a), p. 613)
27. Medicare value-based purchasing demonstration program for critical access hospitals (Section 3001(b), p. 637)
28. Medicare value-based purchasing program for skilled nursing facilities (Section 3006(a), p. 666)
29. Medicare value-based purchasing program for home health agencies (Section 3006(b), p. 668)
30. Interagency Working Group on Health Care Quality (Section 3012, p. 688)
31. Grant program to develop health care quality measures (Section 3013, p. 693)
32. Center for Medicare and Medicaid Innovation (Section 3021, p. 712)
33. Medicare shared savings program (Section 3022, p. 728)
34. Medicare pilot program on payment bundling (Section 3023, p. 739)
35. Independence at home medical practice demonstration program (Section 3024, p. 752)
36. Program for use of patient safety organizations to reduce hospital readmission rates (Section 3025(b), p. 775)
37. Community-based care transitions program (Section 3026, p. 776)
38. Demonstration project for payment of complex diagnostic laboratory tests (Section 3113, p. 800)
39. Medicare hospice concurrent care demonstration project (Section 3140, p. 850)
40. Independent Payment Advisory Board (Section 3403, p. 982)
41. Consumer Advisory Council for Independent Payment Advisory Board (Section 3403, p. 1027)
42. Grant program for technical assistance to providers implementing health quality practices (Section 3501, p. 1043)
43. Grant program to establish interdisciplinary health teams (Section 3502, p. 1048)
44. Grant program to implement medication therapy management (Section 3503, p. 1055)
45. Grant program to support emergency care pilot programs (Section 3504, p. 1061)
46. Grant program to promote universal access to trauma services (Section 3505(b), p. 1081)
47. Grant program to develop and promote shared decision-making aids (Section 3506, p. 1088)
48. Grant program to support implementation of shared decision-making (Section 3506, p. 1091)
49. Grant program to integrate quality improvement in clinical education (Section 3508, p. 1095)
50. Health and Human Services Coordinating Committee on Women’s Health (Section 3509(a), p. 1098)
51. Centers for Disease Control Office of Women’s Health (Section 3509(b), p. 1102)
52. Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality Office of Women’s Health (Section 3509(e), p. 1105)
53. Health Resources and Services Administration Office of Women’s Health (Section 3509(f), p. 1106)
54. Food and Drug Administration Office of Women’s Health (Section 3509(g), p. 1109)
55. National Prevention, Health Promotion, and Public Health Council (Section 4001, p. 1114)
56. Advisory Group on Prevention, Health Promotion, and Integrative and Public Health (Section 4001(f), p. 1117)
57. Prevention and Public Health Fund (Section 4002, p. 1121)
58. Community Preventive Services Task Force (Section 4003(b), p. 1126)
59. Grant program to support school-based health centers (Section 4101, p. 1135)
60. Grant program to promote research-based dental caries disease management (Section 4102, p. 1147)
61. Grant program for States to prevent chronic disease in Medicaid beneficiaries (Section 4108, p. 1174)
62. Community transformation grants (Section 4201, p. 1182)
63. Grant program to provide public health interventions (Section 4202, p. 1188)
64. Demonstration program of grants to improve child immunization rates (Section 4204(b), p. 1200)
65. Pilot program for risk-factor assessments provided through community health centers (Section 4206, p. 1215)
66. Grant program to increase epidemiology and laboratory capacity (Section 4304, p. 1233)
67. Interagency Pain Research Coordinating Committee (Section 4305, p. 1238)
68. National Health Care Workforce Commission (Section 5101, p. 1256)
69. Grant program to plan health care workforce development activities (Section 5102(c), p. 1275)
70. Grant program to implement health care workforce development activities (Section 5102(d), p. 1279)
71. Pediatric specialty loan repayment program (Section 5203, p. 1295)
72. Public Health Workforce Loan Repayment Program (Section 5204, p. 1300)
73. Allied Health Loan Forgiveness Program (Section 5205, p. 1305)
74. Grant program to provide mid-career training for health professionals (Section 5206, p. 1307)
75. Grant program to fund nurse-managed health clinics (Section 5208, p. 1310)
76. Grant program to support primary care training programs (Section 5301, p. 1315)
77. Grant program to fund training for direct care workers (Section 5302, p. 1322)
78. Grant program to develop dental training programs (Section 5303, p. 1325)
79. Demonstration program to increase access to dental health care in underserved communities (Section 5304, p. 1331)
80. Grant program to promote geriatric education centers (Section 5305, p. 1334)
81. Grant program to promote health professionals entering geriatrics (Section 5305, p. 1339)
82. Grant program to promote training in mental and behavioral health (Section 5306, p. 1344)
83. Grant program to promote nurse retention programs (Section 5309, p. 1354)
84. Student loan forgiveness for nursing school faculty (Section 5311(b), p. 1360)
85. Grant program to promote positive health behaviors and outcomes (Section 5313, p. 1364)
86. Public Health Sciences Track for medical students (Section 5315, p. 1372)
87. Primary Care Extension Program to educate providers (Section 5405, p. 1404)
88. Grant program for demonstration projects to address health workforce shortage needs (Section 5507, p. 1442)
89. Grant program for demonstration projects to develop training programs for home health aides (Section 5507, p. 1447)
90. Grant program to establish new primary care residency programs (Section 5508(a), p. 1458)
91. Program of payments to teaching health centers that sponsor medical residency training (Section 5508(c), p. 1462)
92. Graduate nurse education demonstration program (Section 5509, p. 1472)
93. Grant program to establish demonstration projects for community-based mental health settings (Section 5604, p. 1486)
94. Commission on Key National Indicators (Section 5605, p. 1489)
95. Quality assurance and performance improvement program for skilled nursing facilities (Section 6102, p. 1554)
96. Special focus facility program for skilled nursing facilities (Section 6103(a)(3), p. 1561)
97. Special focus facility program for nursing facilities (Section 6103(b)(3), p. 1568)
98. National independent monitor pilot program for skilled nursing facilities and nursing facilities (Section 6112, p. 1589)
99. Demonstration projects for nursing facilities involved in the culture change movement (Section 6114, p. 1597)
100. Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute (Section 6301, p. 1619)
101. Standing methodology committee for Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute (Section 6301, p. 1629)
102. Board of Governors for Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute (Section 6301, p. 1638)
103. Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Trust Fund (Section 6301(e), p. 1656)
104. Elder Justice Coordinating Council (Section 6703, p. 1773)
105. Advisory Board on Elder Abuse, Neglect, and Exploitation (Section 6703, p. 1776)
106. Grant program to create elder abuse forensic centers (Section 6703, p. 1783)
107. Grant program to promote continuing education for long-term care staffers (Section 6703, p. 1787)
108. Grant program to improve management practices and training (Section 6703, p. 1788)
109. Grant program to subsidize costs of electronic health records (Section 6703, p. 1791)
110. Grant program to promote adult protective services (Section 6703, p. 1796)
111. Grant program to conduct elder abuse detection and prevention (Section 6703, p. 1798)
112. Grant program to support long-term care ombudsmen (Section 6703, p. 1800)
113. National Training Institute for long-term care surveyors (Section 6703, p. 1806)
114. Grant program to fund State surveys of long-term care residences (Section 6703, p. 1809)
115. CLASS Independence Fund (Section 8002, p. 1926)
116. CLASS Independence Fund Board of Trustees (Section 8002, p. 1927)
117. CLASS Independence Advisory Council (Section 8002, p. 1931)
118. Personal Care Attendants Workforce Advisory Panel (Section 8002(c), p. 1938)
119. Multi-state health plans offered by Office of Personnel Management (Section 10104(p), p. 2086)
120. Advisory board for multi-state health plans (Section 10104(p), p. 2094)
121. Pregnancy Assistance Fund (Section 10212, p. 2164)
122. Value-based purchasing program for ambulatory surgical centers (Section 10301, p. 2176)
123. Demonstration project for payment adjustments to home health services (Section 10315, p. 2200)
124. Pilot program for care of individuals in environmental emergency declaration areas (Section 10323, p. 2223)
125. Grant program to screen at-risk individuals for environmental health conditions (Section 10323(b), p. 2231)
126. Pilot programs to implement value-based purchasing (Section 10326, p. 2242)
127. Grant program to support community-based collaborative care networks (Section 10333, p. 2265)
128. Centers for Disease Control Office of Minority Health (Section 10334, p. 2272)
129. Health Resources and Services Administration Office of Minority Health (Section 10334, p. 2272)
130. Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration Office of Minority Health (Section 10334, p. 2272)
131. Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality Office of Minority Health (Section 10334, p. 2272)
132. Food and Drug Administration Office of Minority Health (Section 10334, p. 2272)
133. Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services Office of Minority Health (Section 10334, p. 2272)
134. Grant program to promote small business wellness programs (Section 10408, p. 2285)
135. Cures Acceleration Network (Section 10409, p. 2289)
136. Cures Acceleration Network Review Board (Section 10409, p. 2291)
137. Grant program for Cures Acceleration Network (Section 10409, p. 2297)
138. Grant program to promote centers of excellence for depression (Section 10410, p. 2304)
139. Advisory committee for young women’s breast health awareness education campaign (Section 10413, p. 2322)
140. Grant program to provide assistance to provide information to young women with breast cancer (Section 10413, p. 2326)
141. Interagency Access to Health Care in Alaska Task Force (Section 10501, p. 2329)
142. Grant program to train nurse practitioners as primary care providers (Section 10501(e), p. 2332)
143. Grant program for community-based diabetes prevention (Section 10501(g), p. 2337)
144. Grant program for providers who treat a high percentage of medically underserved populations (Section 10501(k), p. 2343)
145. Grant program to recruit students to practice in underserved communities (Section 10501(l), p. 2344)
146. Community Health Center Fund (Section 10503, p. 2355)
147. Demonstration project to provide access to health care for the uninsured at reduced fees (Section 10504, p. 2357)
148. Demonstration program to explore alternatives to tort litigation (Section 10607, p. 2369)
149. Indian Health demonstration program for chronic shortages of health professionals (S. 1790, Section 112, p. 24)*
150. Office of Indian Men’s Health (S. 1790, Section 136, p. 71)*
151. Indian Country modular component facilities demonstration program (S. 1790, Section 146, p. 108)*
152. Indian mobile health stations demonstration program (S. 1790, Section 147, p. 111)*
153. Office of Direct Service Tribes (S. 1790, Section 172, p. 151)*
154. Indian Health Service mental health technician training program (S. 1790, Section 181, p. 173)*
155. Indian Health Service program for treatment of child sexual abuse victims (S. 1790, Section 181, p. 192)*
156. Indian Health Service program for treatment of domestic violence and sexual abuse (S. 1790, Section 181, p. 194)*
157. Indian youth telemental health demonstration project (S. 1790, Section 181, p. 204)*
158. Indian youth life skills demonstration project (S. 1790, Section 181, p. 220)*
159. Indian Health Service Director of HIV/AIDS Prevention and Treatment (S. 1790, Section 199B, p. 258)*

*Section 10221, page 2173 of H.R. 3590 deems that S. 1790 shall be deemed as passed with certain amendments.

poopshovel wrote: I'd rather keep my money and choose who I give it to. But I guess all this crazy "logic" stuff just amounts to "E-THUGGERY." rolleyes.

Since that was my term, I'll ask you to revisit the post where I used it. Using hyberbole and ridculous assertions with no basis in fact to discredit an opposing viewpoint on the Internet amounts to being a thug. We're above that, aren't we?

It is possible in a democracy that values personal rights and freedoms that two people may hold opposing viewpoints. Indeed, that should be welcomed and encouraged -- because it only makes the society stronger. If everyone thinks the same thing, then no one is really thinking.

Conservatives DO NOT hold a monoply on logic. Neither do liberals (or, Democracts, as the case may be).

I'll look forward to buying you a beer someday, too . Although I suspect we will need more than one if we decide to broach political topics. Rob

62.Community transformation grants (Section 4201, p. 1182)

Huh?

I watched Bill Maher on HBO last night. I raged. I had an aneurysm.

I think i'm going to write him a letter and ask to be on the show to set his E36 M3 straight. I am usually amused by his show, but last night was just purely ignorant. He, nor anyone else on the show had any idea how health insurance works, were pulling numbers out of their ass, and it was just disgusting the bashing that was going on.

RAAAAGGEEEEE

93celicaGT2 wrote: I watched Bill Maher on HBO last night. I raged. I had an aneurysm. I think i'm going to write him a letter and ask to be on the show to set his E36 M3 straight. I am usually amused by his show, but last night was just purely ignorant. He, nor anyone else on the show had any idea how health insurance works, were pulling numbers out of their ass, and it was just disgusting the bashing that was going on. RAAAAGGEEEEE

If every time a talk show/news show talks about something you have a little knowledge about you realize they are poorly informed idiots-it means all those times they talk about stuff you know nothing about they are more than likely poorly informed idiots as well.

MrJoshua wrote: If every time a talk show/news show talks about something you have a little knowledge about you realize they are poorly informed idiots-it means all those times they talk about stuff you know nothing about they are more than likely poorly informed idiots as well.

Hence the reason I gave up on that garbage 25 years ago.

MrJoshua wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote: I watched Bill Maher on HBO last night. I raged. I had an aneurysm. I think i'm going to write him a letter and ask to be on the show to set his E36 M3 straight. I am usually amused by his show, but last night was just purely ignorant. He, nor anyone else on the show had any idea how health insurance works, were pulling numbers out of their ass, and it was just disgusting the bashing that was going on. RAAAAGGEEEEE

If every time a talk show/news show talks about something you have a little knowledge about you realize they are poorly informed idiots-it means all those times they talk about stuff you know nothing about they are more than likely poorly informed idiots as well.

No truer words have been spoken.

Ohh no. Say it isn't so. Teddy Roosevelt was for universal health care....

http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2009/08/national_health_care_debate_ha.html

The man that so many conservatives love.. (btw.. I love him too).. what will we ever do now.

ignorant wrote: Ohh no. Say it isn't so. Teddy Roosevelt was for universal health care.... http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2009/08/national_health_care_debate_ha.html The man that so many conservatives love.. (btw.. I love him too).. what will we ever do now.

Erg.

Care =! Insurance.

Just remember Boys and Girls nothing is free. The only job government has is more government. The governments only function is to redistribute. It can not make anything ever! If you feel justified then understand why. Only an individual can make a difference.... a government never can. It is odd when politicians demonize. If not business then books. If you are looking for someone to take care of you (history teaches those who will listen) then your options are full of tyrants doing just that. As our government polarizes the populace on more and more issues the result is always the same.

If you are too lazy to read the bill then read history.

Doc_1 wrote: If you are too lazy to read the bill then read history.

Ok.. I'll read history...

Like most civilized devloped countries have had universal care since 1900 or so and haven't fallen the apart yet.... Ohh and they generally have 1. a better quality of life and 2. longer life spans....

So the the Health Care Bill is full of new liberties? How can you be a liberal and like laws? No new freedom here. Looking for something else I see.

I would hardly say "better quality of life". I've vactioned in Europe. Stuff poor people take for granted in the States even rich people don't have in England, like decent plumbing that works and a kitchen that's bigger than a postage stamp.