When stupid attacks! - steer by wire

fast_eddie_72 wrote: It's insane what we've allowed cars to become. By today's standards, making a car is pretty straightforward stuff. Why add expense and complexity? Silly.

Simple. Packaging.

You can locate steering anywhere in the vehicle and the steering gear itself does not need to accommodate the location of the driver. You could hand control over to the passenger or just set the autopilot and let the cpu control the servos directly. The fixtures and parts in the cabin do not need to account for the forces associated with manually turning a gearbox so can be lighter too.

You guys are never going to get those flying cars they promised us if you keep balking at all the cool E36 M3 it takes to get there from here.

call me old fashioned but I don't want no flying car

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

fast_eddie_72 wrote: It's insane what we've allowed cars to become. By today's standards, making a car is pretty straightforward stuff. Why add expense and complexity? Silly.

Simple. Packaging. You can locate steering anywhere in the vehicle and the steering gear itself does not need to accommodate the location of the driver.

Ever heard of Orbitrol?

It will still work in the event of a pump failure, meaning the operator still has some control.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: You could hand control over to the passenger or just set the autopilot and let the cpu control the servos directly. The fixtures and parts in the cabin do not need to account for the forces associated with manually turning a gearbox so can be lighter too. You guys are never going to get those flying cars they promised us if you keep balking at all the cool E36 M3 it takes to get there from here.

Having seen the dumbberkeleys around me in traffic where there is some chance friction can slow their stupid asses down as they pay attention to EVERYTHING except their driving, the last thing I want is these fools flying. I can just see Honey Boo Boo smacking the dash in a diabetic rage and turning off the autopilot.

Drive by Wire? I've been doing it for years.

those of us that are against things like this aren't against it because we fear progress or technology- it's because we know that this is exactly the kind of thing that should not be mass produced and put into the hands of the general public.

it's bad enough that things like power windows are controlled by a computer now- but a window that won't go down or up because of a computer glitch is a far cry from a car that you can't steer or stop because of a computer glitch.

i thought that this was a website for people that like driving and modifying cars... all these electronics are another step in taking the "driving" out of cars that we won't be able to diagnose and fix, let alone modify ourselves. yeah, yeah i can hear your response already- that's what they said about efi 30 years ago, but this stuff just takes it to a whole 'nother level.

Mechanical Linkage is required in the US for a car to be on the road, by law.

We did a drive by wire car for American Honda @ Clemson. I was the only undergrad on the project.

Worked to, then we discovered the law, told Honda, they used the testing to develop the steering for the Gen 8 Accord.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Do guys ever fly? Do you think the pilot of a 757 is really steering that thing with big metal rod to the flaps?

Pssst the 757 isn't the best example of fly-by-wire, it uses cables triggering hydraulic actuation.

In fact, a few years ago there was a big stink about some Boeing product or other which had a giant Acme screw thread which runs the horizontal stabilizer up and down by turning the screw, much like a scissor jack. IIRC there was an electric motor which turned the screw and the screw would wear, this would cause it to jam. Which is not good.

http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/summary/AAR0201.html

There was some discussion over whether to require it be replaced with something different:

http://www.seattlepi.com/business/article/NASA-says-it-has-a-better-jackscrew-others-1103135.php

My point is, if the thing fails there is no real way to have a backup system. That's the same flaw this steer by wire system has.

The R/C servo above reminds me of just how batE36 M3 an R/C car can get due to: RFI, low battery voltage, or just plain glitches. In an R/C car, it's no big deal. In a full size car, oh yes it is.

Curmudgeon wrote: In fact, a few years ago there was a big stink about some Boeing product or other which had a giant Acme screw thread which runs the horizontal stabilizer up and down by turning the screw, much like a scissor jack. IIRC there was an electric motor which turned the screw and the screw would wear, this would cause it to jam. Which is not good. http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/summary/AAR0201.html There was some discussion over whether to require it be replaced with something different: http://www.seattlepi.com/business/article/NASA-says-it-has-a-better-jackscrew-others-1103135.php My point is, if the thing fails there is no real way to have a backup system. That's the same flaw this steer by wire system has. The R/C servo above reminds me of just how batE36 M3 an R/C car can get due to: RFI, low battery voltage, or just plain glitches. In an R/C car, it's no big deal. In a full size car, oh yes it is.

Second link says it all: "And Boeing says a new design isn't needed at all. The current one has worked for 37 years and about 100 million flight hours, and it would not have failed on Flight 261 had it been properly lubricated by Alaska mechanics, according to Boeing." The NTSB agreed that this wasn't a design issue...

This is nothing, nothing like fly/drive/throttle-by-wire. This is like saying why don't we have cable-actuated brakes as a backup to our hydraulic system. Much like hydraulic brakes, you're looking at a common, proven system with a very, very, very low failure rate that's pretty much a critical item that makes the news the few times it fails.

Millions, millions of flights hours have been born on the wings of fly-by-wire. Very rarely do you see the system itself being dominantly at fault. Even Air France Flight 447 ( which as a Boeing guy I use to rag on Airbus) wasn't a mechanical failure, the crew flew a flyable airplane into the ocean. I don't see steer-by-wire being a problem, reliability wise. There are other arguments to be made, but not reliability.

I was reading this and wondering which GRMer would be the first to build the auto crosser with back seat steering. You could watch the front seat passengers freak out.

ultraclyde wrote: I was reading this and wondering which GRMer would be the first to build the auto crosser with back seat steering. You could watch the front seat passengers freak out.

OR plug-in, portable dual-control systems for driving schools. You could teach/learn to drive the way pilots learn to fly.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Do guys ever fly? Do you think the pilot of a 757 is really steering that thing with big metal rod to the flaps?

Ofcourse not. I was picturing an elaborate system of ropes and pulleys.

I like the old simple stuff, but that ship has sailed. It could be fun what it opens up for packaging and it is getting me closer to my flying car. Having a car with a clutch by wire, I've got no room to complain. Also on the feedback front, a lot of the info you get is actually inner ear, not the nerves on your hands and feet - although with steering you can feel variations in effort.

Wally wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Do guys ever fly? Do you think the pilot of a 757 is really steering that thing with big metal rod to the flaps?

Ofcourse not. I was picturing an elaborate system of ropes and pulleys.

In the C-135, you're not that far off!

fifty wrote:

I must make that hat immediately. Where can I get some Garth glasses?

That's all well and good, however I know that stuff like this does happen

So y'all can be progressive and whatever.

I'm going to still be driving my 32yo car and working on my reflexes so I can hopefully avoid cars which have had a glitch.

I have no interest in owning cars with computers/electronics having control over the steering and brakes. I have driven a few cars with throttle by wire and other than the FR-S they were awful, and after my friends mom took a trip backwards through a fence in an Audi I don't like the idea of allowing computers to apply the brakes either. I know its possible to do it and get it to work, its just that making it cheaply and selling cars that will be driven for at least 5+ years and not maintained doesn't sound smart to me.

I see the phrase "computer glitch" thrown about in this thread a lot. These aren't consumer PCs running Windows we're talking about here... Embedded computers are a hell of a lot more reliable than they were in 1985 when most of you seemed to have formed your permanent everlasting opinions. When was the last time your blender/fridge/home theater system was brought down by a "computer glitch"?

Well, let's see: the water dispenser in my 8 year old fridge works when it wants to, mostly it doesn't want to. Recently it had a brain fart and jacked the fridge side temp up to ~50 degrees; you may recall me posting a question about that here.

Every day- EVERY DAY- I see 'foo codes' and intermittent operation on all kinds of automotive stuff. If the engine dies, at least it's possible to coast to the side of the road. Drive by wire steering quits? Good luck.

Yeah, I'm a Luddite.

Jay wrote: I see the phrase "computer glitch" thrown about in this thread a lot. These aren't consumer PCs running Windows we're talking about here... Embedded computers are a hell of a lot more reliable than they were in 1985 when most of you seemed to have formed your permanent everlasting opinions. When was the last time your blender/fridge/home theater system was brought down by a "computer glitch"?

last summer, my mom wrecked a perfectly good pan of brownies when her 10 year old stove developed a computer glitch that made it decide to go into "self cleaning" mode about 5 minutes after she put them in.. she was washing dishes when she heard the "click" that indicated that the door had locked itself shut, the oven then went up to 700 or so degrees as she was banging away on the control pad trying to get it to stop. then she had a moment of clarity and ran down to the basement and shut of the breaker just as the house was filling up with black smoke.

i can very easily see that same scenario with the brakes or steering in a car going 70mph down the interstate- with the potential for people being dead instead of a pan of brownies- and i don't like that at all.

Curmudgeon wrote: Yeah, I'm a Luddite.

me too

to err on the side of mechanical safety is one thing, pure electronics... no

novaderrik wrote:

Jay wrote: I see the phrase "computer glitch" thrown about in this thread a lot. These aren't consumer PCs running Windows we're talking about here... Embedded computers are a hell of a lot more reliable than they were in 1985 when most of you seemed to have formed your permanent everlasting opinions. When was the last time your blender/fridge/home theater system was brought down by a "computer glitch"?

last summer, my mom wrecked a perfectly good pan of brownies when her 10 year old stove developed a computer glitch that made it decide to go into "self cleaning" mode about 5 minutes after she put them in.. she was washing dishes when she heard the "click" that indicated that the door had locked itself shut, the oven then went up to 700 or so degrees as she was banging away on the control pad trying to get it to stop. then she had a moment of clarity and ran down to the basement and shut of the breaker just as the house was filling up with black smoke. i can very easily see that same scenario with the brakes or steering in a car going 70mph down the interstate- with the potential for people being dead instead of a pan of brownies- and i don't like that at all.

I just replaced a friend's oven because it did exactly the same thing. When that happens, there is NO override; it's like Mother in the first 'Alien' movie refusing to stop the self destruct countdown.

Rufledt wrote:

fifty wrote:

I must make that hat immediately. Where can I get some Garth glasses?

Find your local hipster.

In reply to Osterkraut:

We do, in fact have cable actuated brakes as a backup to hydraulic brakes. That's why it's called the emergency brake.

As for the garth glasses - ray ban wayfarers

Strizzo wrote: In reply to Osterkraut: We do, in fact have cable actuated brakes as a backup to hydraulic brakes. That's why it's called the emergency brake. As for the garth glasses - ray ban wayfarers

I always found it funny that they're called "emergency brakes", especially since the cars I'm aware of use it to brake the rear wheels only. I can only imagine using it in such a way at speed - it would turn into an emergency real fast if there were any lateral forces at play.

Also, I recently saw a commercial where they were making a big deal about the parking brake being actuated by a button on the dash (try using that to start a drift ). So perhaps the purely mechanical cable actuated systems are on their way out as well.