Which came first, the Architect or the Contractor?

After much deliberation, the Mrs. and I have decided that moving will give us everything that we want in a house. Then we decided that we love our neighborhood too much to ever move. Then we decided to add onto the front of our house.  Then the rear.  Then to move again. Then to add a second floor. Or maybe not. ARGGHHHH! So where we are today is we know what we want in the house, and think we know how to get it. If it were up to me, I would just start cutting and ordering trusses, but she's understandably NOT ok with that. 

We talked to contractors, and the general response was "yeah, that will cost a lot more than you think and your doing it wrong and I'd do it differently, blah blah blah."  So we talked to architects and they said "that's can't be done, I'd do it differently, how about this expensive idea that doesn't meet your needs?"   ARRRGGGHHH!!!!

I don't know what to do next.  What I want is pretty simple, it's called popping the top on a ranch.  Cut off 60% of the existing roof, a second story on that part, cap with new roof. Its a simple rectangle, how hard can that be? Then divide that space into a few rooms, rough in plumbing and electrical and HVAC, hang drywall, add windows and siding, it can't be that difficult or expensive. Hell, I'll do trim, paint, bathroom fixtures, etc.  The new space allows us to re-flow the first floor to open up some space, again no big deal, take down a wall, move a doorway. Easy. 

How do I find someone to say "Oh wow, that sounds great! With your budget, here's what we can do to get you to your goals." 

pinchvalve said:

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How do I find someone to say "Oh wow, that sounds great! With your budget, here's what we can do to get you to your goals." 

Ask a bunch of people on the internet who don’t have any experience?

Really though, what you are talking about is going to be fairly expensive and probably be as bad as selling up and trying to find a pre-existing fits all house.

Very expensive and will likely add no value beyond the taxable sq ft added. 

Especially if it looks like one my neighbors homes. Really great looking brick facade on the first floor, horrible cheap vinyl siding for the 2nd floor. It just looks bad, to me at least. 

Not that hard for a contractor who knows what they're doing.  It will cost substantially more than you expect.

We just wrapped up a massive renovation of our house. We ended up with a contractor who was also an architect. He threw together some house plans, we worked on the details, and then he handled the construction. We went from a 2/1 to a 4/3 with two large family spaces. The house was around 1,100 sq/ft before, now we are at just under 3,000 sq/ft finished.

We tried two different architects and had the same frustrations as you. Hell, one of them sold us plans that weren't even up to code in our county! It took us two years to even get the project started. Lots of false starts, flaky contractors, and skyrocketing estimates. We'd tell someone our budget and they would come back with something 2x higher.

The project was NOT cheap, or any way grassroots. I did a small amount of work myself. We supplied all the appliances and some of the fixtures ourselves. We bought stuff on sale and had it installed. We probably saved $5k overall. We had to move out of the house completely, so there are costs with that as well.

For what you want to do there are some companies that do pre-fabricated additions, but I didn't go down that route far enough to get details on the process.

The first question you need to ask is, "Are the first floor walls and the foundation adequate to support double the weight?"

Once that is answered, you decide which existing room on the main floor you can give up for staircases and plumbing/heating chases. 

Now, can you afford to move somewhere for a year, because if you try to live there during demo and construction ...Well, let's just say divorce makes home renovation seem cheap.

The rest is just wood and nails 

Buy a This Old House membership, and watch "The Lexington Ranch" from 1992.  They are doing a bumpout on the back as well, but a whole lot of what they do is what you are asking about.  Watch the whole thing with your wife, and then talk some more.

They wind up with a lovely home, but there are some issues you will need to know about.

In reply to pinchvalve :

Ask me! I'm an Architect. PM me and I'll give you my opinion at least. Most Architects are terrible at this type of project, btw. I can be all artistic and E36 M3 but at the end of the day most people just want something that works.

Take a drive/stroll around the neighborhood and surrounding areas. Has anyone else gone up with their extensions? If so, how do you like the look of it? If not, there may be a reason for it such as a local ordinance. Also, if you're the only double story place in an area full of single story houses you may just end up upsetting the neighborhood. I know most areas where I live require neighbor consent for doing a second story addition due to issues such as privacy, shading and visual impact.

If you're committed to going up as opposed to out, find contractors that have previously done those kind of jobs and have a good track record for getting them done right. Also remember, pretty much any extension to an existing structure is going to result in some kind of compromise, be it layout, asthetics, structural changes, cost or otherwise. Make sure your partner is 100% ok with noise, dust and compromised living conditions if you don't have some way of living off-site during various stages of work, as streetwiseguy mentioned above, you'd hate your dream build to become a relationship nightmare.

In reply to Shadeux :

You wouldn't be willing to cast your eyes over a floor plan I have that I'm looking to rearrange by any chance would you?

Sorry for the thread jack

Why do I have a feeling this thread may make SVRex drink?

Unless you know the foundation was poured to handle the load and the existing walls engineered with that load, I'd say you get to pay for some experts to come in and evaluate both of those situations before going down the road of plans, etc.

When I say experts, I'm not talking about a GC.  You'll want people who are experts in those two fields and can do the math after looking at what you actually have (not what was on the plans so many years ago).

I wish you luck, but I suspect you'd be better off knocking the existing structure into a pile and starting over with new construction and a new floor plan.

In reply to Stefan :

yep.  Tear down.  Sounds crazy but I can look out my bedroom window at two right now.  The whole neighborhood are $500k Tear Downs. 

nutherjrfan said:

In reply to Stefan :

yep.  Tear down.  Sounds crazy but I can look out my bedroom window at two right now.  The whole neighborhood are $500k Tear Downs. 

Leave a wall so it's just a "renovation."

I doubt you'd be able to do it for any less than new construction of a similar size. If you are adding 1000sf, count on $150k. Plus the downstairs changes you talked about.

You will most likely need to reinforce the foundation and the first floor walls to support a second story.  

Very doable but will cost money.  One engineer we were using called for 15 Simpson strong walls which, I believe, are around $1,000 each.  

other issues made us change engineers and the new one said that was ridiculous and he had never heard of such a thing.  He did it with 4 I believe.  

Thanks all, and I will reach out Shadeux. 

Almost every house in the neighborhood has been added onto at some point. This house was actually already expanded once in its lifetime before we owned it. There are one and two story additions, and every manner of other kinds of renovation including teardowns. There are no issues with permitting or HOAs or anything like that. 

I can go out to the front or back and not upset anyone with height, but that means pouring a foundation and adding basement space that I don't really need. It also means less yard for me.  Going up makes my house taller than the neighbors, but houses across the street are two story, and I would make sure that no windows look down into the neighbor's spaces. 

Can the foundation handle it? No way to know. It's typical poured slab with cinderblock walls but was built in the 50s and not by pros. Most people seem to think it can handle it, but I need an experts opinion. 

The budget for the work is about what we paid for the house, so it should be enough, but who knows.  

nutherjrfan said:

In reply to Stefan :

yep.  Tear down.  Sounds crazy but I can look out my bedroom window at two right now.  The whole neighborhood are $500k Tear Downs. 

I’m certainly no expert, but this was my first thought. My brother has an extremely rare “double lot” in his neighborhood in Tampa.

After dumping 10’s of thousands of dollars trying to make their 50’s house something it wasn’t, he finally accepted they were living the “sunk cost fallacy,” tore the house down, and built their dream home.

It wasn’t cheap, but dream fulfillment never is, and they could’ve had it done 5 years sooner and a whole lot cheaper had they just done the tear-down to begin with.

Side-note: As a “skilled trade” guy, the price goes up any time a customer uses the three most hated words: “CAN’T YA JUST....”

If it was easy, you’d be doing it yourself.

I can offer some first hand experience with some caveats. This is my ex's house:

The red square is where she added a second floor addition about 6 years ago.  The front part of the house by the street is already two floors. (and yes, she has a huge garage that is to die for...)

Rough plan: First floor was a separate living room, dining room, kitchen and powder room.  Reno would essentially duplicate that but with an open floor plan (new powder room walls). Second floor would be a master bedroom suite with a walk-in closet, large bathroom, small central A/C mechanical room, second floor washer/dryer closet.  All interior fit-out work would be by us (mostly me...) including electric, plumbing and high-velocity A/C ductwork and all non-structural walls.

+1 on the foundation comment. Her house is old - built in the 1890's and the north wall of the reno area was loose-stone foundation, so it had to be completely redone.  The south wall is more recent and was considered adequate.

One big caveat: she is a registered mechanical (HVAC) engineer with contacts. So she had a structural engineer friend analyze the foundation and they also did some drawings for her. One of her architect friends did the initial plans and 3D renderings (her house is in an historic area so she had to get additional approvals for the renovation).

She had to talk to a few contractors before finally finding one that would do what she wanted for a reasonable cost.  Demo roof and north walls as well as all interior walls. Pour new north wall foundation, new north wall, second floor support and decking, roof joists, new roof over the entire house, most new windows (they reused one existing window), new Hardiboard siding on affected areas. Basically, provide a weather tight space.  All interior walls and MEP fit-out excluded.  $40K (some estimated were nearly double or more).  There were some minor extras related to roofing materials, but it otherwise came in on budget.  The contractor took the plans she gave them and created permit drawings for the township to cover their work.  The MEP work I did was inspected separately.

Bear in mind, these sort of costs will vary a lot depending on where you live.  She spent substantially more to finish the spaces, doing much of the work herself to save money, although after we split up, she had a co-worker's father do much of the finish carpentry.  All new kitchen and powder room. The first floor of the house is finished, but the second floor work is only about half finished.  Mainly, the bathroom isn't finished.  Otherwise it looks really nice.

Hopefully, that is somewhat helpful. 

jfryjfry said:

You will most likely need to reinforce the foundation and the first floor walls to support a second story. 

Honestly?  Probably not.  Most houses are built with 2x4 studs at 16"oc on an 8" minimum concrete block foundation on a (roughly) 12" x 16"-24" concrete footing (because backhoe).

That's perfectly adequate to support a second floor unless soils in your area are particularly bad.

The main / only reason to do this, though, is if you love your location AND your neighborhood and can't find a better-suited house for sale.  It's not going to be convenient, easy, or inexpensive.  There will be compromises in the final design, but it doesn't have to be bad.  As an architect, I have done this more than once.  One of my first projects almost 30 years ago was to convert a 1920s bungalow to 2 stories.  The clients loved the result and 30 years later they are still living there.

But it was a long process, we had a great contractor, and they were willing to pay for well-above-minimum design services.

You can absolutely make it work, with patience and the right team.  But, frankly, moving would be about the same effort.

In reply to daeman :

Sure! I'm happy to comment.

In reply to Shadeux :

Thanks shadeux, very much appreciated.

In reply to pinchvalve: in the interest of comparing apples to watermelons, price out a knock down rebuild as has been mentioned by others, it seems a drastic option but might be more cost effective than you think.