Wow, hiring someone really blows!

$75,000 is the threshold where money stops being the primary motivating factor @ work currently in America, ± a bit for cost of living adjustment.   After that, for a normal person, they're going to be driven more by the autonomy, trust and control they have than money unless they're a rare money-only-motivated person.  Below that threshold, money has a lot more motivating factor because it's hard to build up a sustainable nest egg, own a house and a car or two and have a few vacations every now and then, so you keep bumping into your monetary restrictions.  Both sides of the argument (environment vs money) are correct, it just depends on which side of divide you're talking about relative to $36/hour.

So for Wally's example, $20 * 2080 (number of working hours in a year (40 hour weeks)), that's only $41,600.   Unless they have a spouse making an equal amount, they're going to be under that threshold.

There's some really interesting reading on motivation, here's a quick one:

https://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2010/09/07/the-perfect-salary-for-happiness-75000-a-year/

And here's an excellent podcast on what drives human motivations in general and with some specifics related to job satisfaction and money:

https://youarenotsosmart.com/2014/11/24/yanss-037-drive-motivation-and-crowd-control-with-daniel-pink/

One thing I'm always amazed about is the lack of relative change in vacation, work/life balance, and reasonability (ie getting calling in the middle of the night) as you increase the pay scale.

I now know a few people who are lukcy enough to make over $100k a year, but suprisingly, their vacation time is no better than mine. Those same people getting calls in the middle of the night, they work 50 hours weeks, and if something goes wrong, their ass is on the line.

Vacation in many companies is soley based off of years of service. You could be the CEO, but if you just started, you'll start with the same amount of vacation as the rest of us (give or take a few weeks). The people I know with the best vacation? Teachers and self-employed folks. 

I'm perfectly content with that $75k threshold, after that, I want to see an increase in vacation, more flexibility, not less, and I want life to be easier, not harder. If I was making 100k a year, I'd be buying up properties left and right and looking to exit the workforce pronto, or saving up to start my own biz. 

So, if I had any suggestions for companies struggling to hire quality people, if you can't pay $75k, or even $40k, you can at least give employees the option of taking unpaid vacation, the occasional Friday off, and just giving those underpaid people more flexibility. 

WonkoTheSane said:

$75,000 is the threshold where money stops being the primary motivating factor @ work currently in America, ± a bit for cost of living adjustment.   After that, for a normal person, they're going to be driven more by the autonomy, trust and control they have than money unless they're a rare money-only-motivated person.  Below that threshold, money has a lot more motivating factor because it's hard to build up a sustainable nest egg, own a house and a car or two and have a few vacations every now and then, so you keep bumping into your monetary restrictions.  Both sides of the argument (environment vs money) are correct, it just depends on which side of divide you're talking about relative to $36/hour.

So for Wally's example, $20 * 2080 (number of working hours in a year (40 hour weeks)), that's only $41,600.   Unless they have a spouse making an equal amount, they're going to be under that threshold.

There's some really interesting reading on motivation, here's a quick one:

https://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2010/09/07/the-perfect-salary-for-happiness-75000-a-year/

And here's an excellent podcast on what drives human motivations in general and with some specifics related to job satisfaction and money:

https://youarenotsosmart.com/2014/11/24/yanss-037-drive-motivation-and-crowd-control-with-daniel-pink/

I’m not sure I can agree with the $75,000 yr number.  A good commission salesman will easily make six figures many $250,000 plus and I’ve  known  them to job hop as much as the next guy.  The good ones tend to do it because they see even more income potential.  

On the other hand we’re the guys working past midnight and back on the road again at 6:00 am or earlier. The ones that remember the last vacation years ago and still doing the math on what that cost in lost income income.  

pheller said:

One thing I'm always amazed about is the lack of relative change in vacation, work/life balance, and reasonability (ie getting calling in the middle of the night) as you increase the pay scale.

 

I now know a few people who are lukcy enough to make over $100k a year, but suprisingly, their vacation time is no better than mine. Those same people getting calls in the middle of the night, they work 50 hours weeks, and if something goes wrong, their ass is on the line.

 

Vacation in many companies is soley based off of years of service. You could be the CEO, but if you just started, you'll start with the same amount of vacation as the rest of us (give or take a few weeks). The people I know with the best vacation? Teachers and self-employed folks. 

 

I'm perfectly content with that $75k threshold, after that, I want to see an increase in vacation, more flexibility, not less, and I want life to be easier, not harder. If I was making 100k a year, I'd be buying up properties left and right and looking to exit the workforce pronto, or saving up to start my own biz. 

 

So, if I had any suggestions for companies struggling to hire quality people, if you can't pay $75k, or even $40k, you can at least give employees the option of taking unpaid vacation, the occasional Friday off, and just giving those underpaid people more flexibility. 

With regard vacation time?  Don’t make that offer to a commission salesman. We don’t see vacation time as anything but lost income.  

We hate travel. It’s what we do all the time!  Flying is a royal pain in the butt unless it’s by private jet.   Travel by car with the family?  You’re forced to travel at the slowest person’s pace.  3-4-5 different bladders?  No I really don’t want to see the biggest ball of string or a 2 headed goat. Do you really need to haul so much junk into a place just to sleep?  

If you guys hold on I can make it half way by midnight and with an early start tomorrow morning get there  one whole day early.  Travel via train or bus? You’ve got to be kidding me. 

In reply to pheller :

I made a point of negotiating vacation at hire for my last 3 jobs. I still work like a dog (and accrue a bunch of flex days too) but cen generally take time when needed and when wanted. 

Some industries have wierd corporate HR policies that don't allow anyone aside from senior level management to negotiate vacation. 

frenchyd said:

With regard vacation time?  Don’t make that offer to a commission salesman. We don’t see vacation time as anything but lost income.  

We hate travel. It’s what we do all the time!  Flying is a royal pain in the butt unless it’s by private jet.   Travel by car with the family?  You’re forced to travel at the slowest person’s pace.  3-4-5 different bladders?  No I really don’t want to see the biggest ball of string or a 2 headed goat. Do you really need to haul so much junk into a place just to sleep?  

If you guys hold on I can make it half way by midnight and with an early start tomorrow morning get there  one whole day early.  Travel via train or bus? You’ve got to be kidding me.

We're you the one saying that European better work/life balance probably had them being less stressed?  

Yes, some of us want vacation time to spend with our kids. $250k can go eff itself if you're too obsessed with achieving it to slow down. That's how you end up dead with your kids not remembering you and living on the income you earned for them. 

WonkoTheSane said:

$75,000 is the threshold where money stops being the primary motivating factor @ work currently in America, ± a bit for cost of living adjustment.   After that, for a normal person, they're going to be driven more by the autonomy, trust and control they have than money unless they're a rare money-only-motivated person.  Below that threshold, money has a lot more motivating factor because it's hard to build up a sustainable nest egg, own a house and a car or two and have a few vacations every now and then, so you keep bumping into your monetary restrictions.  Both sides of the argument (environment vs money) are correct, it just depends on which side of divide you're talking about relative to $36/hour.

So for Wally's example, $20 * 2080 (number of working hours in a year (40 hour weeks)), that's only $41,600.   Unless they have a spouse making an equal amount, they're going to be under that threshold.

There's some really interesting reading on motivation, here's a quick one:

https://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2010/09/07/the-perfect-salary-for-happiness-75000-a-year/

And here's an excellent podcast on what drives human motivations in general and with some specifics related to job satisfaction and money:

https://youarenotsosmart.com/2014/11/24/yanss-037-drive-motivation-and-crowd-control-with-daniel-pink/

Keep in mind that is $75k PER PERSON, not $75k per household. 

That's an important distinction. 

Hiring is hit and miss.   A while back I needed another structural engineer for the project I was managing.  I got with the dept manager but he had no one available so he told me he had to bring in a contract guy since I only needed the position for about 3 months.

He interviews a guy who had been out of work and tells the guy the position is for  a design structural engineer and he has to already know the structural engineering software package we use.  The guy assures the hiring manager he is and he does.  I had actually worked with this person 20 years before on a large project and thought I knew his capability though had no personal knowledge of his professional ability.

So its the week before Christmas, I am out, the new guy comes in and reports to my Lead Structural Engineer, a guy I knew and trusted.   I got a phone call about an hour after the new guy reported from Lead Structural  engineer. 

He tells me new guy told him he is a project manager, doesn't do structural engineering and doesn't know the software anyway.     I called the hiring manager and told him what was up.     We both decided instant firing was the only solution.    The dude was shocked. Really.  

So two days before Christmas I  had to fire this guy that I knew had been out of work for a year.   I slept well that night feeling no guilt about my decision.

frenchyd said:

WonkoTheSane said:

$75,000 is the threshold where money stops being the primary motivating factor @ work currently in America, ± a bit for cost of living adjustment.   After that, for a normal person, they're going to be driven more by the autonomy, trust and control they have than money unless they're a rare money-only-motivated person.  Below that threshold, money has a lot more motivating factor because it's hard to build up a sustainable nest egg, own a house and a car or two and have a few vacations every now and then, so you keep bumping into your monetary restrictions.  Both sides of the argument (environment vs money) are correct, it just depends on which side of divide you're talking about relative to $36/hour.

So for Wally's example, $20 * 2080 (number of working hours in a year (40 hour weeks)), that's only $41,600.   Unless they have a spouse making an equal amount, they're going to be under that threshold.

There's some really interesting reading on motivation, here's a quick one:

https://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2010/09/07/the-perfect-salary-for-happiness-75000-a-year/

And here's an excellent podcast on what drives human motivations in general and with some specifics related to job satisfaction and money:

https://youarenotsosmart.com/2014/11/24/yanss-037-drive-motivation-and-crowd-control-with-daniel-pink/

I’m not sure I can agree with the $75,000 yr number.  A good commission salesman will easily make six figures many $250,000 plus and I’ve  known  them to job hop as much as the next guy.  The good ones tend to do it because they see even more income potential.  

On the other hand we’re the guys working past midnight and back on the road again at 6:00 am or earlier. The ones that remember the last vacation years ago and still doing the math on what that cost in lost income income.  

$250k per jobs............less than 1% of the country makes that salary. 

Excellent commentary as always.

In reply to z31maniac :

And the median household income in the US is well below that magic $75k mark.

In reply to z31maniac :

The King Of Irrelevant Special Cases strikes again.

frenchyd said:

I’m not sure I can agree with the $75,000 yr number.  A good commission salesman will easily make six figures many $250,000 plus and I’ve  known  them to job hop as much as the next guy.  The good ones tend to do it because they see even more income potential.  

On the other hand we’re the guys working past midnight and back on the road again at 6:00 am or earlier. The ones that remember the last vacation years ago and still doing the math on what that cost in lost income income.  

The question is not, can people make more, or do people make more. The question is - does more money make people happier? And after about $75k - actually I'd heard the magic point was $87k/year - more money does not make people happier. Will they continue to be the rat pressing the lever for more cocaine? Sometimes yes, but they will not end up with an increase in happiness due to the additional dose. If you can't be happy (satisfied) with $87k/year, you will never be happy with your income.

Some people just need more - more - more and no matter how much they have it's never enough. Then again, some people seem to think a vacation is a meaningless slog to a place whereas other people can be happy sitting in a car with people they love.

z31maniac said:

WonkoTheSane said:

Keep in mind that is $75k PER PERSON, not $75k per household. 

That's an important distinction. 

Whoops, sorry.  Yes.. That's my faulty memory when I was typing out.  Thanks for the correction!

In reply to frenchyd :

250k a year selling what? 

The vacation thing is pretty important though. I dont take actual vacations but I take time off almost whenever I want. Its paid too, one thing I really appreciate about being in the military lol

dculberson said:

frenchyd said:

I’m not sure I can agree with the $75,000 yr number.  A good commission salesman will easily make six figures many $250,000 plus and I’ve  known  them to job hop as much as the next guy.  The good ones tend to do it because they see even more income potential.  

On the other hand we’re the guys working past midnight and back on the road again at 6:00 am or earlier. The ones that remember the last vacation years ago and still doing the math on what that cost in lost income income.  

The question is not, can people make more, or do people make more. The question is - does more money make people happier? And after about $75k - actually I'd heard the magic point was $87k/year - more money does not make people happier. Will they continue to be the rat pressing the lever for more cocaine? Sometimes yes, but they will not end up with an increase in happiness due to the additional dose. If you can't be happy (satisfied) with $87k/year, you will never be happy with your income.

Some people just need more - more - more and no matter how much they have it's never enough. Then again, some people seem to think a vacation is a meaningless slog to a place whereas other people can be happy sitting in a car with people they love.

Happiness and money are two different things to most people. How much money it takes to be happy is the same thing.  

I can be happy with a big income or a modest one.  When the wife smiles and winks I’m happy. Or when we argue and fight I’m not happy. Neither have anything to do with money. 

When I made a mortgage payment after finding every last coin stashed away or fallen in the cracks of the sofa I was happy.  Life just isn’t about money!

I woke up this morning and the sky was beautiful  I heard the loons calling and I was filled with contentment.  I just received  an estimate for dental work and I was unhappy.  I’ll go home this evening and take the boat for a cruise and be happy.  

This weekend I helped a single mother move into an apartment, the first place she’s lived without wheels since her husband ran off and left them.  Doing a good deed like that makes me happy.  Payday is Friday, and  next Thursday and the first of the month. None of those make me happy.  Getting extra work makes me happy.  Usually. Heck almost always.  

My oldest daughter got a raise and a promotion. That makes me happy. She celebrated by buying a new car.  That makes me happy.  Messed around on the boat with the grandkids. I’m happy. Went swimming with them I’m happy.  My oldest granddaughter couldn’t come, I’m unhappy.  

Money doesn’t make people happy or unhappy. It’s just part of life.  

dculberson said:

The question is not, can people make more, or do people make more. The question is - does more money make people happier? And after about $75k - actually I'd heard the magic point was $87k/year - more money does not make people happier.

I'd believe that.  I'm not sure exactly how dated the 75k/yr number was, but it looks like we agree on there being X threshold after which it's other factors affecting it more than the money.

STM317 said:

In reply to z31maniac :

And the median household income in the US is well below that magic $75k mark.

Yep. Currently median is around $60k with mean around $78k. 

I currently make a touch more than the article stated on my own, especially once I get some more debt paid off, I'm pretty happy with the money (especially since OK is SO cheap compared to many other parts of the country) I'd really like some more vacation time. 

3 weeks of actual vacation would be a nice start, not the current "Here's your 13 days and we are going to take 4 of them every year. So you really don't even have 2 weeks."

In reply to frenchyd :

Errr, OK.

frenchyd said:

dculberson said:

frenchyd said:

I’m not sure I can agree with the $75,000 yr number.  A good commission salesman will easily make six figures many $250,000 plus and I’ve  known  them to job hop as much as the next guy.  The good ones tend to do it because they see even more income potential.  

On the other hand we’re the guys working past midnight and back on the road again at 6:00 am or earlier. The ones that remember the last vacation years ago and still doing the math on what that cost in lost income income.  

The question is not, can people make more, or do people make more. The question is - does more money make people happier? And after about $75k - actually I'd heard the magic point was $87k/year - more money does not make people happier. Will they continue to be the rat pressing the lever for more cocaine? Sometimes yes, but they will not end up with an increase in happiness due to the additional dose. If you can't be happy (satisfied) with $87k/year, you will never be happy with your income.

Some people just need more - more - more and no matter how much they have it's never enough. Then again, some people seem to think a vacation is a meaningless slog to a place whereas other people can be happy sitting in a car with people they love.

Happiness and money are two different things to most people. How much money it takes to be happy is the same thing.  

I can be happy with a big income or a modest one.  When the wife smiles and winks I’m happy. Or when we argue and fit I’m not happy. Neither have anything to do with money. 

When I made a mortgage payment after finding every last coin stashed away or fallen in the cracks of the sofa I was happy.  Life just isn’t about money!

I woke up this morning and the sky was beautiful  I heard the loons calling and I was filled with contentment.  I just received  an estimate for dental work and I was unhappy.  I’ll go home this evening and take the boat for a cruise and be happy.  

This weekend I helped a single mother move into an apartment, the first place she’s lived without wheels since her husband ran off and left them.  Doing a good deed like that makes me happy.  Payday is Friday, and  next Thursday and the first of the month. None of those make me happy.  Getting extra work makes me happy.  Usually. Heck almost always.  

My oldest daughter got a raise and a promotion. That makes me happy. She celebrated by buying a new car.  That makes me happy.  Messed around on the boat with the grandkids. I’m happy. Went swimming with them I’m happy.  My oldest granddaughter couldn’t come, I’m unhappy.  

Money doesn’t make people happy or unhappy. It’s just part of life.  

yupididit said:

In reply to frenchyd :

250k a year selling what? 

We have an almost 40 year veteran at work that is here.  In at 6am and headed to the bar for drinks at 5:30pm.  Every Saturday and a lot of Sunday 1/2 days.   

Works hard.  Parties hard. He’s not my hero but I respect his work ethic.  I work 5-1/2 - 6 day weeks but I work hard at balancing my life.