You can't find help.

It's technically a salary because the pay is determined not by time or tips. It is dependent on your arriving every day, but you could work for 45 minutes, go home and earn the day rate.

It's either great or awful. Not much in-between.

In reply to Duke :

Do you know what companies call overtime for salaried employees? Profit. They call it profit. 

So glad I get paid straight time for my work. 

Scotty Con Queso said:

In reply to Duke :

Do you know what companies call overtime for salaried employees? Profit. They call it profit. 

So glad I get paid straight time for my work. 

I've been a salaried employee nearly all of my life.  You either accept it, or you don't.  I accept it.  Yeah, I'll work 45-50 hours some weeks.  But I also work 32 hours others, and for 90% of my work weeks, it's pretty much a straight 40.  I get paid the same either way, and I usually get bonuses for prolonged periods of long weeks. 

I don't have a problem with it.

I just left Sensor, a job paying WAY better than most regionally, because of the caustic, overstaffed and oppressive management system for a job as a maintenance technician at Hi-Lex, a smaller manufacturer. 

I just heard that Denso is over 170 people short on first shift alone and are requiring office staff to fill manufacturing roles. Skilled trades has been working 7 day weeks for months with no prospects of improvement.

Hi-Lex is probably 30-40 people short but we are reacting pretty progressively. 

For whatever reason no one is willing to work currently.

I'm eager to work. Since I was 16 I've never been out of a job for more than a week (I didn't have to pay rent until 18 but I wanted to drive and wanted a phone). I know lots of folks like me, including a few that are way more motivated and earn way more. That said, for everyone I know in my age group like me, I know 4-5 that will only do the bare minimum and complain the whole time. Maybe it's something folks grow out of? I certainly didn't have anything I'd call a real work ethic when I was 16. May be more in that than in "kids these days just don't want to work." Idk. 

In reply to John Brown (Forum Supporter) :

If they aren't willing to work, you aren't paying enough. Costs have skyrocketed and pay hasn't kept up. How much more expensive is the average house in the area? How much more is gas? Electricity? Water? Groceries?

Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to John Brown (Forum Supporter) :

If they aren't willing to work, you aren't paying enough.

 

Costs have skyrocketed and pay hasn't kept up. How much more expensive is the average house in the area? How much more is gas? Electricity? Water? Groceries?

First sentence is a lovely sentiment, and may very well be true in some cases, but some people would really rather skate by and watch Dr Phil all afternoon.  I know some of them.

Second sentence is not only true for employees, its true for employers.  If I pay somebody more money, and he gets everything done, fabulous...Unless there are a few hours left at the end of the day where there is nothing to do.  That comes directly out of my wallet.  Pay a more than living wage to build a product that has you competing against third world wages, and you are dead meat.

I don't have a solution that doesn't involve us reverting to an agrarian society.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

Higher wages so people can afford to buy locally manufactured goods?

People don't aspire to buy third world produced crap, they settle for it.

Benefits are good, older guys (and gals) know that very well. Younger, and single, workers are probably more concerned with the take home line on the paycheck/direct deposit for all the aforementioned reasons. We know we're a commodity, we've been hearing about the death of pensions and jobs shipping overseas and C-Suite gold parachutes so we're looking to get ours. Also, cost of living is up. Cost of housing is up, incredibly. Sure you can live like your g-parents did but not many are going to choose to live disconnected because their job is decades behind in pay. What are promotions like? We, the younger generation, hear a lot about our utter lack of work ethic but we see stagnant jobs that just don't go anywhere and we were raised, by the older generation, to expect and demand more. I can't speak for the "don't want to work" thing but I do know that we're just products of our raisin' and that extends to our expectations.

If you can't get people then you aren't paying enough. All other things being equal (benefits, conditions, management), if you can't keep people then you aren't paying enough. I was booted out of my last job with no warning last year and was lucky enough to find a similar job for similar pay in a few weeks. I hadn't been there more than a couple months before I realized that my promotion chances are near 0 so, even though the benefits are decent and management is good, I am actively looking and applying for other jobs. I have no intention of doing an entry level job until I die and many people my age know that if we weren't born with rich daddies then no one is going to look out for us but us. Do your positions have promotability? Is it visible and understandable? My employer fills vacancies via a temp agency and since I have been there I have only heard about 1 open position, most I hear about when they are introducing the new hire. This is a very effective way of telling me to get comfy where I am and I am not inclined to do that when the only reason I go there 5 days a week is the paycheck.

You couldn't pay me enough to work for Amazon, not with everything I've heard about their working conditions.

streetwiseguy :
I don't have an easy answer for you, I'm not in your shoes and I don't entirely envy you for wearing them. I've had plenty of days where I'm the guy sitting around twiddling my thumbs at the end of the day and ya know what? If my supervisor walked up and offered to just let me clock out without punishment or retribution, and I felt safe doing it, I would. Somedays I don't feel like finding make-work, somedays I know that if I start the next thing in line I'll either be working late or I'll have to stop at an inopportune time. Maybe there is an answer in flexibility and work place innovation. (And I think anyone worth the increased wage would recognize that such flexibility would come with the understanding of "don't abuse it")

Streetwiseguy said:

I pay somebody more money, and he gets everything done, fabulous...Unless there are a few hours left at the end of the day where there is nothing to do.  That comes directly out of my wallet.  

That coming out of your wallet has nothing to do with employees. It has everything to do with E36 M3 management. If there isn't a what's next or what needs to be done list for when there isn't work that needs to be prioritized and completed. It shows that there's no standard procedures, there's no protocols, there's no system. And somebody in management has been promoted to their level of incompetence. Truth is, it shows the employees beneath that person are efficient and can get the job done, in spite of the leadership above them. I'm not directing this commentary at you, but I see it almost every automotive independent shop that I used to work with. And it's widespread in an issue outside the automotive world. 

I wonder how many additional employees could be hired if you eliminated that manager benefits package. 

I think some people are just flat burned out. 

They have been chasing that carrot on a stick for way too long. More hours, less vacation time. Fewer benefits. Health care is unaffordable,  rent is ridiculous and the debt just keeps piling up. Now they want them to risk Covid infection to take a job with crappy health insurance. Once you realize that the game is rigged and you aren't going to make it to the top, you either lie down with a bottle and some painkillers or you find a way to scam the crooked system.

In reply to captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :

I wasn't making excuses for my horrible management style.  I was suggesting that it is not only employees that suffer in lean times, and sometimes paying more just sends you over the edge more quickly.

Also, my shortest term employee is 12 years, he's on flex time to make his children's daycare survivable, And he gets four weeks of paid holiday, plus the eleven statutory holidays I have to pay everybody for every year.  I'm a berkeleying sweetheart to work for.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

Having tenured people that you can trust is awesome and makes life easier. They are of course more expensive. I would actually consider and recommend, and I know it's ridiculously difficult, finding a right person with less tenure and experience to train up, who also comes in at a lower pay scale you know somebody's definitely not an A-Tech or b-tech but I'd look into getting like a lube guy that you can train to become a C-Tech to kind of balance out the easy work. It's nice to have an A  tech do a simple brake job or oil change and tire rotation, but you're not making money paying somebody $40 an hour to do those jobs. Compensation wise have the performance bonus for the shop be based on shop efficiency not individual efficiency, that'll ensure that your best tax train the new guy get them up to speed don't let him languish and fail. and that everybody will help each other when they're stuck on a job where another set of hands can be utilized. 

Any owner or manager that's open to doing things differently, when compared to how they're already doing them, regardless of how successful their business is, is already open and right to be successful regardless of the market moving forward. Apple had a hit with the iPhone when it came out, it worked it set sales records it made them nearly a billion dollars just off the first one. How many new and different iPhones have they come out with since then? Versus how many cell phones has Sony made? Sony came out with the first Walkman, they tried to evolve did the mini disc then the disc man, but dragged their butt on MP3s. Applesaw MP3 player selling saw the cell phone market gaining steam merged the two together then developed software that paired more easily and readily to their computers and smart speaker devices and everything else to change the profile of the company, and oh now they all have your data and analytic information that they can sell everybody else for more than what you paid for their device the gives them the courtesy to do so. 

In reply to captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :

I've built a few techs in my time.  I completely agree.

We've gotten a bit off topic on this line, anyway.  I could certainly start another about finding people who are dumb enough to want to be a mechanic, but smart enough to be one... That is a story for another day.

I stand by one of my original statements on topic, though.  To expand my corn broom factory, and compete against the Chinese or Indians, I have to push a ton of brooms out the door, and just benefits would be far more than the total cost of employees in a third world country.  Then we can talk about the environmental costs of discarding the corn stalk residue, installing air purifying equipment...

It's not just employees who struggle.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

Higher wages so people can afford to buy locally manufactured goods?

People don't aspire to buy third world produced crap, they settle for it.

First sentence, I agree.  Second sentence, not so much.  How many guys on this board will shop up the cheapest white box part they can find to fix their German scrap iron?  How many people want cheap, because they can afford six E36 M3ty brooms instead of one that works and lasts?

You are assigning a level of intelligence and observation that might not exist in a large percentage of the population.  Hell, I buy my probably Sri Lankan Wranglers at Walmart, because I burn through them pretty quickly, and they are half the price of anybody else.  I'm not proud, but there you go.

There seems to be a massive shortage of CDL drivers.  I see signs everywhere looking for drivers.  I was thinking in terms of the long haul drivers and how that scene may not be attractive. 

That said, one of my current customers owns a bunch of logging trucks.  He can't keep many of the trucks on the road for lack of drivers.  This is a job where you are home every night.  He says it pays between $200 and $250 per day based on how hard you hustle.   No takers.   I'm guessing there must be easier driving jobs out there that pay more?

In reply to Purple Frog (Forum Supporter) :

I have a CDL but driving an old logging truck with dubious maintenance isn't going to entice me. I've been there, done that. 
If I'm going to pound down the road the rewards need to be in line with the effort. Meanwhile I'll make what I can driving modern  equipment and just  coast until someone realizes nothing moves until a driver moves it. 

Streetwiseguy said:

In reply to captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :

I've built a few techs in my time.  I completely agree.

We've gotten a bit off topic on this line, anyway.  I could certainly start another about finding people who are dumb enough to want to be a mechanic, but smart enough to be one... That is a story for another day.

I stand by one of my original statements on topic, though.  To expand my corn broom factory, and compete against the Chinese or Indians, I have to push a ton of brooms out the door, and just benefits would be far more than the total cost of employees in a third world country.  Then we can talk about the environmental costs of discarding the corn stalk residue, installing air purifying equipment...

It's not just employees who struggle.

Labor understands that automation is going to take their job sooner or later.  The most expensive labor markets with the highest social costs ( taxes ) Finland and Japan yet they make the air bags for the whole world.    
I've seen market dominating countries lose their whole market by cutting labor costs.  Look at Clark Forklift for one. GM went bankrupt trying to cut costs . Shall I continue?  

frenchyd said:

Streetwiseguy said:

In reply to captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :

I've built a few techs in my time.  I completely agree.

We've gotten a bit off topic on this line, anyway.  I could certainly start another about finding people who are dumb enough to want to be a mechanic, but smart enough to be one... That is a story for another day.

I stand by one of my original statements on topic, though.  To expand my corn broom factory, and compete against the Chinese or Indians, I have to push a ton of brooms out the door, and just benefits would be far more than the total cost of employees in a third world country.  Then we can talk about the environmental costs of discarding the corn stalk residue, installing air purifying equipment...

It's not just employees who struggle.

Labor understands that automation is going to take their job sooner or later.  The most expensive labor markets with the highest social costs ( taxes ) Finland and Japan yet they make the air bags for the whole world.    
I've seen market dominating countries lose their whole market by cutting labor costs.  Look at Clark Forklift for one. GM went bankrupt trying to cut costs . Shall I continue?  

But the conversation is about garbagemen and corn broom makers.  Not highly skilled labour.  Certainly honorable work, which allows a guy to feed his family, but not something where it takes ten thousand hours to become proficient.

GM got lucky they were able to go bankrupt so they could get out from under some truly horrifying union caused debt, but that is probably a patio worthy discussion, so I'll stop now.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

Last numbers I heard was a Robot cost something around $12.00 an hour to purchase and operate.  
that's assuming a useful life of 5 years 24/7/365 but that was a few years ago and doubtless costs are coming down. 
       Craft and artistic content may be exempt from the laws of economics  But there are two factories in the twin cities who build wall assemblies along with roof trusses 

How long will it be before those walls are plumbed, wired, ducted, and finished in a factory and trucked to the building site. With that will go a lot of construction jobs. 

They can sit home and get paid half of Your check.  A lot of people are happy to take that deal.

I look at the motivational factor not as "well you can make $15 an hr or nothing", I see it as " you can make $600 a week before taxes take half or.... you can chill and make what $400 straight, then hustle on the side and make up the difference or more under the table. why would people be motivated to work their asses off for the same or less money than they get to just chill. 
 

The business owners are almost as to blame as the government. Cheap berks dont pay people a living wage, and take advantage of those who do stay and put up with it by making them pick up the slack. The system is broken in all sorts of ways. 

BoostedBrandon said:

Well here we are, 3am and guess what. My phone rings, and I have to run his route today.

I've got four dumpsters in two different counties on my dispatch board already, no telling what will get added.

You can only stretch your good employees so far.

If your boss isn't helping out running the routes, they ain't no boss worth working for. Ever.

Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to John Brown (Forum Supporter) :

If they aren't willing to work, you aren't paying enough. Costs have skyrocketed and pay hasn't kept up. How much more expensive is the average house in the area? How much more is gas? Electricity? Water? Groceries?

Locally the cost of living is rather good, moreso now that Michigan dumped the Worst In The Union auto insurance costs. Wages locally are good, not great. Home ownership is actually pretty high, which is a sign of economic stability. Southwest Michigan is a relatively cheap place to live and if you make $40k (most of the manufacturing jobs locally will get you there without issue) you can thrive.

Personally I make more than that number. In the 7 years since my divorce I have paid off $58k in debt, we currently owe $69k on a $150k 3 acre property and roughly $40k on two newer vehicles (2016 Wrangler and 2018 HR-V). Next year we are refinancing the house to do two separate renovations and the purchase of the surrounding 28 acres. We will have $170 invested in the house and 31 acres with a value closer to half a million. Yes it is a family farm, no it would not pass muster on a Challenge budget... no one else is getting the same deal we are. 

As far the local workforce, it's either VERY hard workers or VERY lazy non workers. I don't have an answer or even a hypothesis on the reasoning. I was a slacker growing up into my 30s and then one day a switch just flipped in me. I started grinding and earned many of the rewards I have attained. I've also been super lucky. Exceptionally lucky. It's part of the reason I can't formulate a theory on the current local work force. 

frenchyd said:

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

Last numbers I heard was a Robot cost something around $12.00 an hour to purchase and operate.  
that's assuming a useful life of 5 years 24/7/365 but that was a few years ago and doubtless costs are coming down. 
       Craft and artistic content may be exempt from the laws of economics  But there are two factories in the twin cities who build wall assemblies along with roof trusses 

How long will it be before those walls are plumbed, wired, ducted, and finished in a factory and trucked to the building site. With that will go a lot of construction jobs. 

Automation costs have come down greatly on the last 5 years. A $1m robotic cell at Denso 5 years ago can now be put on the floor for $230k and actually be a better unit and far more scalable. I worked with these items daily. It's amazing how they made these things inexpensive.

In reply to Purple Frog (Forum Supporter) :

This is a double edged sword. The big companies want more drivers not to haul what they have to haul, but to further dilute the pool and force crappy driving wages on who is already there. Solo CDL semi drivers are leaving because the companies pay $0.40/mile, owner operates make more than double but then you have to maintain your own E36 M3. Even if you can conform to perfection the law on commercial driving, you are capped at about 50-60k/yr never being home. And all the walmart tightwads can continue to have their $200 80" TV's. Something has to give. Listen to the overnight trucking radio shows... They have beat this drum for many years.

If you're paying per day and can't guarentee leaving "about" some time, you ain't getting nobody. Pay by the hour, people will break down your door. Same as the OP.