This is all wise advice.
I did look into farm/ag land, but around here its not cheap. Amish buy it up with cash real fast.
At least its not really any cheaper than residential land. And since PA has SO much rural sprawl, you have to sometimes go a long way to find it.
curtis73 wrote:pheller wrote: They didn't want people buying a piece of land in a residentially zoned area and building a garage on it. They wanted people to build houses in residential areas, otherwise they wanted you in Ag, Commercial or Residential areas. I don't ever remember encountering what constituted a house though, for instance, if you had a one bedroom studio above a 4 car frame on foundation garage, I think that still counted as a house. If I was going to build new, I'd definitely go that route; that is a small apartment above a large garage.I would love that as well, but most ordinances prohibit new construction from putting a living area above a garage. Something about how X% of house fires start in garages, so they don't want you living on top of one.
Yes the ordinances don't always come from redtape seeking bureaucrats. Some are based on analysis of ensuring we all get along and your shophouse won't burndown half the neighborhood since you run a liquid oxygen and fireworks storage facility in it. Firemen are like Marines. They WILL go in to get you most times. So cities try to prevent deathtraps from being built.
If you can't build over why not think rowhouse style with the side warehouse space?
It seems you are trying to be very innovative which will require a work to validate you can do it.
Advan046 wrote:curtis73 wrote:pheller wrote: If you can't build over why not think rowhouse style with the side warehouse space?
Didn't think that existed. At least it doesn't around here.
I am violently opposed to rowhouses for my wants, although I'm getting to the point where I'm thinking about considering one. I detest the lack of privacy, the noise, and the fact that some crackhead could move in next door and set fire to the building and take my stuff with it.
I'm buying a house for independence, not being smashed up to someone that I'm forced to discuss whether or not we replace a roof together.
Heck, I hated sharing just a driveway with another house at the old place. The people that lived there were great, but they sold and the new kid refused to help shovel snow, and liked to do burnouts in the gravel.
I want a shared nothing. No wall, no driveway, no fences. I'm buying a house because I want a house. Me. Not me and the 6 people on either side, not me and someone who squawks at me to cut down a tree because it has a branch on their side, not me and someone who has loud parties, not me and an HOA that makes decisions for me.
Me.
Just me.
Sorry for the rant. 
(it actually was a great suggestion, just not for me)
You can easily put a residence above a garage. You just need to provide a 1-hour rated fire separation... which is remarkably simple to accomplish, with some attention to detail.
Curtis:
I think you already know everything you need to know.
You live in an expensive area.
The price point you are hoping for is simply unrealistic based on local comps.
You already know the zoning guidelines.
You already know the ordinances on RV's.
You are not willing to compromise for an apartment or any the of shared living.
You don't want to commute far.
You haven't explored the new construction costs (but I can tell you they won't meet your budget requirements).
Your income level is questionable for qualifying for a mortgage, but you don't want one anyway.
You are committed to keeping the job you have.
You are committed to keeping the income level you have.
Bottom line, you are gonna have to compromise on at least one of the issues. Increase your price point, relocate, increase your income, share space, take on a mortgage, longer commute, move into an RV park, or simply live normal in Normalville. Your call, man.
Duke wrote: You can easily put a residence above a garage. You just need to provide a 1-hour rated fire separation... which is remarkably easy to accomplish, with some attention to detail.
Yup.
SVreX wrote: Curtis: I think you already know everything you need to know. - You live in an expensive area. - The price point you are hoping for is simply unrealistic based on local comps. - You already know the zoning guidelines. - You already know the ordinances on RV's. - You are not willing to compromise for an apartment or any the of shared living. - You don't want to commute far. - You haven't explored the new construction costs (but I can tell you they won't meet your budget requirements). - Your income level is questionable for qualifying for a mortgage, but you don't want one anyway. - You are committed to keeping the job you have. - You are committed to keeping the income level you have. Bottom line, you are gonna have to compromise on at least one of the issues. Increase your price point, relocate, increase your income, share space, take on a mortgage, longer commute, move into an RV park, or simply live normal in Normalville. Your call, man.
I hate it when someone crushes my fluffy idealistic dreams with a logically-based bulleted list.
Things with the lady-person are clipping along brilliantly, and the topic has been discussed about buying together and pooling our resources, but A) Waaaay too early for that, and B), should something happen, one of us will either be in over our heads on payments or have to sell fast... and who knows what the market will be like at that point.
In reply to curtis73:
I just thought it was ironic that you were asking about building codes/ coming ordinances, yet you are clearly the most knowledgeable person here on the subject of the local codes and ordinances in your area. 
And yes, I am 1 of the people who +1ed your post. 
Gee, Curtis, too bad we are so far apart.
I have almost what you are looking for
In reply to SVreX:
Normalville is on my side of the state, about 3 hours west of Curtis. With a population somewhere equal to a carton of cigarettes, no one really cares what you do with your property, but it's a really long drive to work for him.
The only really sage advice I have is if you were willing to commute longer, codes are very very lax in the middle of the state. Between Philadelphia and Harrisburg you get all the uppity people who, well they're a lot like my uncle who lived in Mechanicsburg until recently, yuppy scum. How far are you from a county line? The could open up some options, but I suspect you're already on to of that if it's possible.
Although thinking about it, between Ligonier and the ski resorts/casinos in the area, you could probably have a job just like what you have, but on this side of the state. There is a surprising number of stage houses and performance places in "revolutionary era" PA.
Is anyone familiar here with 'Toddle House' restaurants? I've often wondered how expensive it would be to build a replica as close to the property line of an urban lot in say for example the city of Petersburg Va and then the largest barn/shed/garage back of that the/any city would allow? Smallest allowable size might be the issue. I use Petersburg as an example as it's the only dirt cheap one near D.C. that I know of. 
SVreX wrote: In reply to curtis73: I just thought it was ironic that you were asking about building codes/ coming ordinances, yet you are clearly the most knowledgeable person here on the subject of the local codes and ordinances in your area.
Haaa. Wish I knew more. I'm just baffled by how many different municipalities there are in a 2 mile radius.
RevRico wrote: The only really sage advice I have is if you were willing to commute longer, codes are very very lax in the middle of the state.
I'm starting to consider longer commutes. East and West is very possible. If I open things up to 30 miles radius, there are a few communities that have homes. If you go east, you have Hershey, Lancaster, and Hummelstown, none of which are affordable. There is Reading which is affordable, but its a bit isolated from any highways, so 30 miles can easily become an hour commute. Reading is also kinda headed in a Detroit-esque direction. Its cheap for a reason.
If I go north, there is some cheap stuff, but I'll be forced to share a 2-lane winding rural road to get into town with everyone else. South has some nice looking properties, but there again; I-83 is to PA as the 405 is to Los Angeles. Parking lot.
To the west is where I am. Carlisle, Mechanicsburg, and Camp Hill are priced very high for what you get. Mechanicsburg and Camp Hill are super-close bedroom communities and are top-notch for location, quality of life, shopping, etc, so it makes sense they are expensive. Carlisle has the War College which seems to be the only reason for the high prices. We don't have much else going for us in Carlisle... at least that appeals to me personally. It is a great town, just not for me.
I really have given a lot of thought to larger commutes, its just that increasing the radius doesn't seem to offer any real benefits, but tends to bring bigger downsides.
Built right your three car garage could be attached to the end of the house with the oversized living room featuring car dealership style triple doors opening to a nice concrete patio in the back yard. From there if one of your standard three bedrooms happens to be big enough to use as a TV room then that is great.
With the great, thick patio space out back right off the living room it would sure look nice if both the living room and patio were finished with nice stained and sealed concrete.
Such a house would be considered normal, even high end. No one would care what you do in the garage, and who would know what made it into the living room from the back patio?
If things are going well with the lady then I'd just sit tight and see where things go.
Who knows, you might be convinced to move to Baltimore or vice-versa.
Long as we're talking about codes...
I'm currently vacationing in FL. There is a bar/ night club under construction. Its commercial construction, but it's going to be a traditional island Tiki bar type structure- thatched roof, post and beam construction. Since this won't fit into the building code, the contractor came up with an interesting work-around.
He hired a group of Native American (Seminole) carpenters to build it. They don't have to meet the code (and what they are building us a long way from meeting the code)
I guess there is always another way.
curtis73 said: Reading is also kinda headed in a Detroit-esque direction. Its cheap for a reason.
So, it's awesome and gentrifying overnight? Buy now if it's still cheap!
Sorry, I gots to defend the D. (serilously though, some neighborhoods in the city have skyrocketed in value very recently. The restaurant scene is amazing.)
In reply to SVreX:
Hmm...since Curtis is in PA maybe there are some Amish contractors available who could do similar?
pheller wrote: If things are going well with the lady then I'd just sit tight and see where things go. Who knows, you might be convinced to move to Baltimore or vice-versa.
We're talking about it. We're trying to not jump in too quickly to a situation that might cause wallet-ache in addition to heartache should things go that direction.
What we're thinking is that we both proceed normally in buying our own houses, then if the situation arises that we move in together, we would rent out the other house. (or sell depending on the market) Its also possible that we rent together for a bit until we find a house (which would cut my hatred of renting in half since I would be throwing away half the money of renting alone)
She (somewhat unfortunately) has to stay close to Harrisburg; shared custody of a 3 year old. She could move further away, but that would really be hard on a young kid. Divorce is tough enough. They've agreed for right now; days with her, nights with him, then every other weekend they trade.
In reply to Pete Gossett:
I don't think Amish have any claim on pre-dating US law.
WilD wrote:curtis73 said: Reading is also kinda headed in a Detroit-esque direction. Its cheap for a reason.So, it's awesome and gentrifying overnight? Buy now if it's still cheap! Sorry, I gots to defend the D. (serilously though, some neighborhoods in the city have skyrocketed in value very recently. The restaurant scene is amazing.)
Haaa.... clarification. Reading is headed toward what Detroit was 10 years ago. Better?
WilD wrote:curtis73 said: Reading is also kinda headed in a Detroit-esque direction. Its cheap for a reason.So, it's awesome and gentrifying overnight? Buy now if it's still cheap! Sorry, I gots to defend the D. (serilously though, some neighborhoods in the city have skyrocketed in value very recently. The restaurant scene is amazing.)
I had the opportunity to buy a block of 100 houses in Detroit for a total if $100K. Kinda wish I did it.
Pete Gossett wrote: In reply to SVreX: Hmm...since Curtis is in PA maybe there are some Amish contractors available who could do similar?
Plenty of Amish contractors and I have used them before on a Townhouse row I helped build (gulp) 25 years ago. Their popularity has caused a rise in demand and pricing, but still a very good option.
Right now I'm in pretty good shape; two good friends are electrical contractors, one general contractor, and I'm not too shabby myself. That's four able guys, two of whom are licensed and insured. They won't be free, but I think I can bribe them with partial payment in beer.
Whether or not they'll have time to step away from their regularly-paying work is another question.
In reply to SVreX:
That's awesome. Is he a former lobbyist? 
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