1961 Ford Falcon Fun Factory

In reply to rustomatic :

Holy E36 M3, love it! Do you have a build thread on here?

Well this is not a good update. Been having fun driving the car while still waiting on my Holley in-tank fuel pump to show up so I can start the EFI install. Still backordered I guess. Love the new steering wheel btw.

I noticed yesterday alot of white smoke on startup. I have not seen the car smoke at all so far until that. I had to run some errands, put about 20 miles on it around town. It was smoking on throttle all day. Clearly white smoke, so I started to suspect head gasket. I didn't have much time yesterday so I checked the oil when I got it home, perfectly clean.

This morning I pulled some coolant out of the radiator with my motorcycle fork oil syringe to see what it looked like. Bad news.

Clearly oil in the coolant.

Looks like I'm parking the car, and will tear down the top end to see what's going on. Might as well check everything and reseal it before the EFI install anyway. Pretty bummed, but it is what it is.

Should I suspect these cheap no-name aluminum heads might let this happen again? Should I look at replacing these? Or just reseal it and hope they're fine. Would love any input!

I posted this above, but here's all I know about them:

Heads
ASA Performance PC3038
Pro Series Ford Aluminum heads 201cc complete
From the receipt. They were purchased on ebay. They don't seem to sell them anymore, can't find any info on them.

Just got a heads up my fuel pump shipped today, so that's awesome. Good timing to tear the motor apart since I can finish the EFI install at the same time. Looking forward to that.

Some Googling revealed these heads are Pro Comp brand. They don't seem to be sold anymore, but from what I gather from other forums, they are Chinese made copies of maybe an Edelbrock design? They don't seem have very good reviews or be good quality. I'm interested to see what I find when they are off the engine.

More to come.

Setbacks like this are never fun; will be interesting to see what you find out on what failed, if it's head gasket or heads themselves, etc.

Procomp heads seemed to be pretty universally panned when I was coming across threads or people asking for input.   Cheap, light, and high quality-pick two seems to apply here.  Sorry to hear about this.  

In reply to mickpiston :

I don't really have a build thread on the car.  I did one a few years ago to motivate me, then I got done, and took down the thread.  I tried a new one here, but it felt repulsively redundant, so I killed that, too.  I've had the Falcon (1963.5) for ten years, and it's been through a number of iterations, but it became a 1992 Corvette (tube frame in middle) a few years ago, with a 2011 5.3 LS (and turbo).  It's fun, but it's basically a track rat that hasn't been tracked for a couple of years.  I drive it to get coffee at the gas station.

Here's a pic from the last track day I did out west, pre-turbo:

By the way, condolences on the motor problem.  I used to love the old Ferd small blocks, but once I got my hands on an LS, there was no going back.  On that note, some of the best, nearly free small block heads came on the last iterations of the 5.0, in the mid-90s.  The ones you have will probably still work with some machining, though.  The last small block I had was a Ford X302 crate motor, and it came with Chinese heads that worked okay . . .  The E303 cam was a freaking shame, though.

Any questions on suspension stuff or anything, let me know.  I've been there.  These cars are way more satisfying than a Mustang.

In reply to rustomatic :

Awesome car! I'd love to see that in person. Super cool to put it on a Corvette chassis. I have some experience with SBC 350's (camaros), but never tried an LS. Someday!

Any idea on what year/models or casting numbers on those mid-90's heads stock heads you're talking about? I'm looking at all options right now.

What are your thoughts on the Street or Track suspension for these?

Thanks!

Well I tore down the motor last night. Found some interesting stuff. Pictures will tell the story best.

Drained the coolant, pretty oily!

Got the valve covers off next, and immediately found this:

Cylinder #8 had the intake rocker stud snapped off right the head of the nut. The rocker and nut were sitting on top of the head. Found nice Trick Flow pushrod with no damage, so that was good. I found these roller rockers online, they are ProComp brand as well, sold by Summit. Found bad reviews of them all over the internet. When I got the head off there was no damage to the piston or valve underneath,  so I'm assuming just E36 M3ty rocker studs? I've seen reports of these rockers coming apart, and the needle bearings grenading in a couple thousand miles. They will not be reused obviously. I will sell them with the ProComp heads, hopefully somebody will want them and can make them work well. 

I did not expect to find this, the motor made no weird noises at all, and had no indication of a dead cylinder. Really weird.

Continuing on...

I knew Weiand Stealth intake was a dual plane, but I swear I saw pics online that there was a gap in the vertical spacer in between. Apparently that can be a big deal for the EFI system. I'll have to look into that. Wonder if I should cut it down? Or look at a different intake manifold? Any input?

Nothing interesting in the valley. I will pull the lifters and check them out, but I don't see any issues.

Heads off. Forgot about the pain in the ass of headers with shock towers haha. Wasn't too bad after unbolting them at the collectors. Then I realized the nice ARP head studs have internal allen heads, so you can easily remove them to get the heads off. Went alot faster after that.

Is there any problem reusing the head studs? I Wouldn't think so, but would love any input.

Heads on the bench. No obvious leaks or damage in the head gaskets. I didn't find anything obvious at the block or the heads. There was clearly oil getting into the coolant, but from where?

This is the passenger side head. Looks to me like fairly even carbon buildup, no obvious sign of burning coolant. Anybody see anything I'm missing?

Driver side head. See the chamber on the far left, that is #8 with the broken rocker stud. This one looks different than the others. I assume this was where coolant/oil was mixing somehow. It looks cleaner than the others, I assume from the water. But how the hell could a broken rocker have anything to do with that?

Closeup.

Would really appreciate any input you guys have!

I'm looking for new seat of heads and rockers now, will figure out what to order asap. I want to get the motor back together and my EFI on it!

Anything else I should check while it's apart right now?

In reply to mickpiston :

When the intake valve fails to open the vacuum in that cylinder goes way up on the intake stroke, thus pulling the coolant past the gasket. During compression stroke it pushes it back along with the extra oil that has been pulled up past the rings from the same excessive vacuum. Well that's my theory, anyways. I have also seen small Fords cross leak at the coolant passages on the intake manifold/cam gallery. Particularly problematic on engines that have had heads shaved or blocks decked.

The fact that the rocker stud broke so dramatically has me wondering if possibly the threads (where it screws into the head) were damaged? Those normally need sealant since they are drilled into the coolant passages, and given the way the stud failed possibly there is some damage there that is letting coolant into the topside of the head, where it can flow right back into the pan. 

As for why it failed, I have a hunch. Totally an educated guess but since you mentioned this is a budget head I wonder if the valve train is not intended for roller cams. The reason I mention this is because I'm using budget heads — Edelbrock E-street in my case — and the reason for the low cost isn't due to the head itself, which flows great (according to some magazine tests I found on the Internet) but the weaker springs and head studs they used. In the Edelbrock documentation they take great pains to point out that you shouldn't rev over 5500 RPM and never ever use with roller cams even at lower revs. They can be upgraded but out of the box they're flat-tappet only. Possibly your budget heads have the same limitations?

I also noticed the number 8 rocker had some pretty clear wear marks on the roller to one side, and it doesn't look like it was centered over the valve stem.  I could see a combination of the steep ramp of the roller cam, coupled with the side load on the rocker (maybe mix in some revs if you were running it hard at all) would lead to a failure of the stud itself. 

I'd consider inspecting the area the rocker  stud threads into to see if there's any damage that you need to fix. If that checks out then some ARP rocker studs and better valve springs may be all you need here. Fingers crossed for you!

rustomatic said:

Cool hotrod!  I've been there.  Just know that when your Falcon digests a Corvette, like below, there's no going back.

I’d love more details on this. Got a build thread or how to? Judging by thunder hill, you’re semi local 

That situation with the heads sucks, but I guarantee you can find some out there pretty cheap.  That or a local machine shop (probably not that busy) might be able to resuscitate them.  Those little engines are so light that the iron heads really did not weigh all that much more, and some pretty good iron heads are out there for 5.0s, but maybe not so much with stock shock towers.  I had the last version of iron heads, and I had to chop a couple inches off of the shock towers in a '63 Ranchero in order to access the plugs . . .

The intake will probably be just fine with a TBI setup.  Can't hurt to try (there's always the grinder).  I've only done carb and stock-type injection on those things.  If you're committed to the Ford thing, they did have a distributorless computer setup in '97 on the last of the 5.0 Exploders.

As for StreetorTrack, they make nice stuff, but I would argue against spending the money--the effect won't really be there for what you pay, as much of the compromise is the result of stock mounting locations/spaces.  I've used most of the bolt-on stuff out there on old Mustangs and Falcons (street, track, and autox), and it really boils down to geometry in the front and avoidance of leaf slop (sideways and back/forth) in the back.  You can drop the upper control arms like 1.5", and move them back as much as possible (to get caster).  The guy who makes reinforced stock-type arms (as does Cobra Automotive) is pretty much the way to go, with improved locations.  Avoid crap that uses heim joints (except in the case of a Panhard rod or Watts link), as they will wear out quickly and create horrific NVH; they're like magnifiers of surge-creating lope-meister cams.  Avoid KYBs and most Bilsteins.  Konis are worth it.

For a shortcut, go on Pro-touring.com or Lateral-G and look for posts by a guy named Craig510.  He's done everything to his '63 Falcon, and he consults (engineer) with Mike Maier (guru/manufacturer) on some of the best specific parts made for these things.  Making these things work right is about good choices that others have already made 1000 times, rather than throwing money down a well.

TurnerX19 said:

In reply to mickpiston :

When the intake valve fails to open the vacuum in that cylinder goes way up on the intake stroke, thus pulling the coolant past the gasket. During compression stroke it pushes it back along with the extra oil that has been pulled up past the rings from the same excessive vacuum. Well that's my theory, anyways. I have also seen small Fords cross leak at the coolant passages on the intake manifold/cam gallery. Particularly problematic on engines that have had heads shaved or blocks decked.

I think this hit the nail on the head. That was the only cylinder that showed signs of coolant, and I think your explanation is dead on. Thanks for the explanation! My machine shop guy said the exact same thing (more on that below).

In reply to jerrysarcastic (Forum Supporter) :

I think you might be right on all this stuff. 

After looking around at the prices on new heads, I decided to try and save these. I took them to a local machine shop and engine builder today, and they think they can save them. They said the same thing, the castings aren't the problem here (though they will check them out thorougly for any defects to be sure), and likely the issue was the valve springs. The engine guy did seem to think the broken rocker stud was due to that particular rocker not being centered correctly, and set too tight. The shop is going dissasemble them, check everything out, do a valve job, machine the head mating surface, replace the guides and seals, rocker studs, rockers, springs as necessary. They have all the specs on the Ford F303 roller cam and will set the heads up to match. They estimated about $600 or less for the job. Fine with me, I was looking at over double that easy replacing the heads. I was happy with the power and the way the motor ran, so if it is the same or better (and more reliable), then I'm happy for that price. I'll update when I get the heads back!

I talked to the previous owner of the car who built the motor. He said the heads were advertised as being set up for a roller cam. Who knows what that means as far as springs go. I have the receipt for the original head purchase, they were $650 new shipped on ebay in 2017. I'm assuming that doesn't get you the best quality springs or valves. 

We'll see what the shop comes up with, can't wait.

rustomatic said:

That situation with the heads sucks, but I guarantee you can find some out there pretty cheap.  That or a local machine shop (probably not that busy) might be able to resuscitate them.  Those little engines are so light that the iron heads really did not weigh all that much more, and some pretty good iron heads are out there for 5.0s, but maybe not so much with stock shock towers.  I had the last version of iron heads, and I had to chop a couple inches off of the shock towers in a '63 Ranchero in order to access the plugs . . .

The intake will probably be just fine with a TBI setup.  Can't hurt to try (there's always the grinder).  I've only done carb and stock-type injection on those things.  If you're committed to the Ford thing, they did have a distributorless computer setup in '97 on the last of the 5.0 Exploders.

As for StreetorTrack, they make nice stuff, but I would argue against spending the money--the effect won't really be there for what you pay, as much of the compromise is the result of stock mounting locations/spaces.  I've used most of the bolt-on stuff out there on old Mustangs and Falcons (street, track, and autox), and it really boils down to geometry in the front and avoidance of leaf slop (sideways and back/forth) in the back.  You can drop the upper control arms like 1.5", and move them back as much as possible (to get caster).  The guy who makes reinforced stock-type arms (as does Cobra Automotive) is pretty much the way to go, with improved locations.  Avoid crap that uses heim joints (except in the case of a Panhard rod or Watts link), as they will wear out quickly and create horrific NVH; they're like magnifiers of surge-creating lope-meister cams.  Avoid KYBs and most Bilsteins.  Konis are worth it.

For a shortcut, go on Pro-touring.com or Lateral-G and look for posts by a guy named Craig510.  He's done everything to his '63 Falcon, and he consults (engineer) with Mike Maier (guru/manufacturer) on some of the best specific parts made for these things.  Making these things work right is about good choices that others have already made 1000 times, rather than throwing money down a well.

Thanks for the reply. See my response above, going with local machine shop to rebuild them, should be cost effective and get them back in action reliably. I'll update with their configuration when I get them back.

Good to hear on the intake with the TBI setup. I'm going to try it as is and see how it goes. It's easy to remove if I need to modify it later.

Thanks for the info on the suspension stuff. With the head problem, that is pushed down the list for now since it's far from urgent. I'll worry about that stuff next spring sometime.

I'll check out the Craig510 guy's build, sounds awesome.

Nice, glad you got some confirmation from your machine shop.  Rebuild definitely sounds more wallet-friendly for sure!

I have the receipt for the original head purchase, they were $650 new shipped on ebay in 2017. I'm assuming that doesn't get you the best quality springs or valves. 

Definitely doesn’t seem seem to get you hardened rocker studs either.  The ones on my Edelbrock heads are also pretty weak — I seized a nut on one of my studs trying to use a home brew spring compressor — so I replaced that one with an ARP stud.  I’ll be replacing the rest when I get new springs and make the switch to a roller cam.  

Maybe your valve springs are enough for a roller (have your machinist confirm) and in that case hardened rocker studs may be all you need.

In reply to jerrysarcastic (Forum Supporter) :

Judging by the way the rocker stud snapped....it wasn't very hard. The machine shop will inspect and replace all components as necessary to match the cam, so I think it will turn out fine. I'll see what they say after tearing them down later this week.

I looked close at those Edelbrock E-Street heads as they were the cheapest name brand head, but from what I read they were not much of an improvement over what I already have, without spending more money on components to upgrade the valvetrain. Since I didn't have to pay anything (specifically) for these heads, I think it's smarter to invest in having them set up correctly.

Glad you agree, feels better to hear another opinion that this is a reasonable route to take.

Got the heads back from the machine shop yesterday, those dudes were super fast. They did a nice job on them, they look great. They had the right springs in them for the cam, but the spring preload was less than half what it should be. The valves basically never had enough spring pressure to hold them closed correctly based on the cam specs. They shimmed the springs to achieve the preload in the cam specs, and installed locators to keep the springs in place. A valve job, and surfacing the head and it was ready to go. The heads were in good shape, valves, and guides were fine. I bought gaskets from them as well, trying to support my local shops and all that.

Got all the parts ready to go, should have the motor back together this weekend. 

Good thing I noticed thread sealer on the lower/outside head studs when I removed them. I chased the threads with a tap to be safe but they were all good. Turns out the lower/outside head studs require thread sealer on the later 5.0L blocks since they are drilled straight into the water jacket. Using some Permatex #2 on them, looks like thats what was in them before and they weren't leaking.

Pulled a couple lifters, they all look good. Looks like the engine has Ford Performance Parts hydraulic roller lifters, they have good reviews:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m-6500-r302h

Alright that's the update. More when the motors back together.

Hope everybody has a great Christmas!

Not in love with the amount of scuff marks on that lifter. In theory, it should be impossible to put a side load on a hydraulic roller lifter and something caused that wear.  The metal had to go somewhere.

My experience with TBI injection ( FITECH) did not end well. I went back to a carb after spending two years learning stuff the hard way.  The reason I gave up is not because I think that it would never work, just that after so much berkeleying around with it and time on the forums where negativity reins, I found that anytime I drove the car the Fitech was a constant thought.  I never once went for just a drive, it was always a Fitech tune.

That said, a few things I believe are important when converting to EFI:

Get a smoke machine to test the intake and exhaust for leaks. The TBI injection is hyper sensitive to leaks in either system and without the smoke machine you are just guessing and will go around in circles. $40 at a party store where they are sold as fog machines. Or YouTube to build your own.

Lose the dual plane intake. I have one and it was the point where I quit casue I was tired of shooting the parts and $$$ cannon at the Fitech. Who knows it might have been the magic bullet that solved all my problems, but I was tired of it all and did not want to spend the $$$ on a single plane.

The sensor that comes with the Fitech is junk. They have known all along and continue to send the bad ones. I suspect they bought a LOT of them.

EMF noise on the tach wire is a huge problem for both Fitech and Sniper. How this could have been overlooked is beyond me . 

10 gauge power and ground straight to battery and TBI body. Anything else is a risk.

The 12V switched pretty much needs to be rock solid so once again, best to have a direct from battery source run through a relay that is activated by the key.

You need a fine filter right at the TBI intake. Stuck-open injectors are a common issue with the TBI injections systems and it is quite possible that is is just stuff comming down the line from our less than OEM quality fuel system builds. A tip was to run a gallon or two of fuel out into a fuel container before connecting in order to flush out a new system.. In tank pumps are the way to go.

Figure how to download the data logs from a  short drive and how to read them. Fitech just gives you a spreadsheet that is of little use to anyone new to EFI. Some kind of graphic chart would be more useful, but then they are not selling this to anyone who would want to go there in the first place. Although I never solved any of my problems with the data log info, I do miss the data now that I have gone back to a carb.

On another front, how did you go about determining the length of your pushrods? Getting that wrong can put some bad loads on rockers and studs. 

On the subject of using aftermarket heads out of the box: Intel from someone who works at a machine shop is they are ALL E36 M3 out of the box. Does not matter if you bought the cheapest or most expensive on the market CNC or not. They are not assembled by skilled labour and mistakes happen. Assume that the seats and springs are all wrong. Engine building is about measuring and knowing what the actual specs are, not what they are supposed to be.

Kinda looks like there wasn't enough thread engagement on the stud for the nut.too long of a pushrod or too short of a stud causes the flex that'll take off the top.im the machine shop guy no home mentioned and I've been building Ford small blocks for over 30 years...lots of times there's Chevy parts specs in like valves that are .100" longer on a Ford which causes pushrod length problems,stud length problems...like no home said you need to start from scratch and measure everything

NOHOME said:

Not in love with the amount of scuff marks on that lifter. In theory, it should be impossible to put a side load on a hydraulic roller lifter and something caused that wear.  The metal had to go somewhere.

 

My experience with TBI injection ( FITECH) did not end well. I went back to a carb after spending two years learning stuff the hard way.  The reason I gave up is not because I think that it would never work, just that after so much berkeleying around with it and time on the forums where negativity reins, I found that anytime I drove the car the Fitech was a constant thought.  I never once went for just a drive, it was always a Fitech tune.

That said, a few things I believe are important when converting to EFI:

Get a smoke machine to test the intake and exhaust for leaks. The TBI injection is hyper sensitive to leaks in either system and without the smoke machine you are just guessing and will go around in circles. $40 at a party store where they are sold as fog machines. Or YouTube to build your own.

Lose the dual plane intake. I have one and it was the point where I quit casue I was tired of shooting the parts and $$$ cannon at the Fitech. Who knows it might have been the magic bullet that solved all my problems, but I was tired of it all and did not want to spend the $$$ on a single plane.

The sensor that comes with the Fitech is junk. They have known all along and continue to send the bad ones. I suspect they bought a LOT of them.

EMF noise on the tach wire is a huge problem for both Fitech and Sniper. How this could have been overlooked is beyond me . 

10 gauge power and ground straight to battery and TBI body. Anything else is a risk.

The 12V switched pretty much needs to be rock solid so once again, best to have a direct from battery source run through a relay that is activated by the key.

You need a fine filter right at the TBI intake. Stuck-open injectors are a common issue with the TBI injections systems and it is quite possible that is is just stuff comming down the line from our less than OEM quality fuel system builds. A tip was to run a gallon or two of fuel out into a fuel container before connecting in order to flush out a new system.. In tank pumps are the way to go.

Figure how to download the data logs from a  short drive and how to read them. Fitech just gives you a spreadsheet that is of little use to anyone new to EFI. Some kind of graphic chart would be more useful, but then they are not selling this to anyone who would want to go there in the first place. Although I never solved any of my problems with the data log info, I do miss the data now that I have gone back to a carb.

 

On another front, how did you go about determining the length of your pushrods? Getting that wrong can put some bad loads on rockers and studs. 

 

On the subject of using aftermarket heads out of the box: Intel from someone who works at a machine shop is they are ALL E36 M3 out of the box. Does not matter if you bought the cheapest or most expensive on the market CNC or not. They are not assembled by skilled labour and mistakes happen. Assume that the seats and springs are all wrong. Engine building is about measuring and knowing what the actual specs are, not what they are supposed to be.

I agree on the lifter, there was some weird wear marks on it. The bore looked clean and I didn't see any marks. The roller and the cam lobe looked good too. None of the other lifters had any wear like that. I'm going to run them as is for now, I think they will be OK. Will be doing really regular oil changes as well, I assume something got in that lifter bore that scraped it up.

Thanks for all the EFI info and tips, that was really useful. I've read lots about the EFI/RFI issues on the Sniper, I'll be doing alot to head those off.  I've already run the wiring for from the battery, but I didn't look at the required current for the Sniper system. Will replace it with 10AWG. Going to use a relay for the switched hot circuit and supply direct battery current.

I'll update as I dig into that project. Hoping to start next week after I solve some other problems I'll update about below.

I didn't determine the length of the pushrods, they were in the motor when I bought it. They are Trickflow 5/16" diameter, 6.5" long. They seem to be listed for the 302 with aluminum heads, but who knows if they were correct or not.

I think I will get an adjustable pushrod measuring tool and check things out to see if I need to get different lengths. Thanks for the tip.

In reply to petey :

Thanks I will measure the purshrod length to see, appreciate the input. I think it's worth checking for sure. The machine shop guy didnt seem to think this was an issue, he said the wear on the valve stem tip indicated the roller on the rocker was hitting in the center, and it was not a pushrod length issue. I guess I don't know for sure.

Well, almost had the heads back on and of course had a problem.

Before beginning, I chased all the threads in the block. They were all nice and clean, no problems. Studs threaded in easily with no issues.

The driver side went on no problem. All torqued fine, ready to rock.

Of course the other side had to be a pain in the ass. 

I followed the right stud torque sequence, went in steps (50, 60, 70 ftlbs), used moly lube on the stud nuts, etc. All were great, until the last torque step on one of the last bolts, and the threads in the block let go. Damn. Pulled the head back off. Front passenger side lower head bolt threads are donezo.

Planning on heli-coiling it tomorrow. Will seal helicoil to block with thread sealer, and then seal stud to helicoil. Hope this will seal up fine, since it is a lower bolt that goes through to water jacket, but I don't see any alternatives right now.

Can I reuse this brand new $40 head gasket even though it's been torqued down once? Obviously never ran. I'd hate to replace it, but I also don't want to tear the motor apart again in the future.

nope once squished a head gasket (conventional) is toast.6.5 inches for a pushrod on a roller cam 5.0 is about 1/4" too long typically as stock is 6.27" ish.ford roller lifters always have those marks on them it seems,so thats kind of a no big deal thing long as you cant feel any edges i'd send em.if youre using head studs,are you torquing the stud or just putting em in finger tight and torquing the nuts?

and that block face surface looks a little chewy.has the block ever been resurfaced that you know of?

That's a bummer regarding that head stud.  You've reminded me of all the times I've had water pump bolts/studs break in the block on old Fords.  Just like the studs you've mentioned, some touch water--great setup they designed there.  Definitely look into the ARP head stud installation process if you haven't already done so; it's pretty specific regarding which parts to grease and how to go about torquing.  Many have re-used non-metallic head gaskets with success, even under boost . . .