Last autocross of the season today. A brisk 50-60F today and I could not get my endurance 200tw to light off. Still a reasonable performance. 2nd in class and 4th on raw time overall. That puts me in 2nd for season points this year.
Now its time to start winterizing the car. Get some antifreeze back in it, change the oil and maybe wrap up a few parts installs before the weather makes it unpleasant to be out in the garage. I have a wishlist for black friday that I'll be shopping for.
My firesuit came in today. Its a used indycar crew suit from raceimage. I've been watching their inventory since summer for one with the right dimensions.
Is that a Trible next to you?
DrMikeCSI said:Is that a Trible next to you?
What are you talking about? Tribbles are prohibited under Star Fleet regulations for transportation of dangerous organisms.
I don't think your home sub-woofer is big enough, it's like you are not even trying.
/s
Got my trackspec 4pt bar installed. Rudz Racing did the install for me. Anyone want to buy a BK harness bar?
Awesome Build. Fun to see your progression.
Today I finished up a late c6 brake conversion. The c5 master cylinder places the mc seal right over the hole that goes to the ABS system. So under hard braking on the track it erodes the mc seals. It'll start having the pedal sink to the floor at stoplights. Then you get sudden brake failure at the track. The fix is a brake booster and master from a 09+ c6. The firewall is identical to the c6. The early c6 used the same crappy seal design, but with the zr1, we got a much better master cylinder design.
Here's the parts list for the conversion 97-00 has a different setup from 01-04, check the tabs
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1C_pQ5dWDM3KGUW0dqbfYSsMKJdxLB6NOpp8hZTxSKw8/edit?usp=sharing
The process is a bit of a PITA. The four bolts for the booster are buried deep under the dash. There is also a pin holding the booster to the brake pedal. You'll need a 15mm on a long wobble extension. Take the seat out to do this. Topside the MC is just two bolts and then you can open the brake lines to the ABS. I left the system sealed until I had the new booster in and was ready to install so it didn't leak all over.
Booster install, you want to secure the nuts into the socket. I used a bit of teflon tape wrapped around the nut to make it snug. The rest of the lines are pretty easy. I ran them along the windshield cleaner tank. That gives you more clearance around the headers and less heat too. Since the early c5 have a factory proportioning valve, its easy to add an adjustable one. I also took the opportunity to replace all the stainless brake lines on my wilwoods. They're probably 10-15 years old by my best guess.
A long pressure bleed later I have a firm and high pedal again.
This weekend I did suspension v2 on the front of the car
I've been avoiding this for ages, but this is the largest window I'll have to work on the car before events start in earnest and since it'll need realigned it has to happen at once. The worst thing about all of this is all of the bushing press outwards. It makes access a pita. I got one of those big C clamp kits and tried my best but ended up having to go over to a buddy's house where he had a shop press. Being able to stack cups vertically and have a set of hands to keep it aligned is a game changer.
Anyhow UCA weren't too bad. You can actually use a screw jack like you have in the back of many cars to push both out. Delrin almost seats by hand and a rubber mallet finished it and the dog bones that go in. The studs unfortunately didn't come with a specific depth recommendation and mount with red locktite. I just use the original bolt as a guide hopefully I won't be back with a torch to adjust them. I was able to get the upper ball joints out of the knuckles as well since you can press easily from the outside.
The LCA is the big issue. I couldn't fit my C arm in there and get my impact on it. The ball joints are a lot bigger too and need more force. A bearing puller kit allowed us to sqeeze in under the bushing and press from the outside. You use a socket or something similar to have a narrow drive element.
The sway bar, I'm a little concerned it will hit my coilovers. The strano bar is adjustable where so has a longer tab. I used the adjustable links to put it where I think it'll have the most clearance. I guess we'll find out.
I still need to pull out the rears and get them setup as well. Hopefully it should go quicker for round 2
I also did a start of the year tour of the car just before starting work on bushings.
This thread has gotten me unreasonably motivated to find a cheap C5 for HPDE work. How much did you pay for your example originally?
In reply to nsogiba :
$11k. Facebook marketplace or corvette forum seems to be the best place to hunt for deals. If you really want a prepped one, I see some deals pop up from time to time in the spec corvette FB group.
Interesting, that's what I paid for a bone stock unmolested '00 FRC with 100K on it in 2016.
I've been eyeing up banged up examples on IAAI and Copart which go for 5K for a crashed coupe up to 9-11K for a similar Z06
nsogiba said:Interesting, that's what I paid for a bone stock unmolested '00 FRC with 100K on it in 2016.
I've been eyeing up banged up examples on IAAI and Copart which go for 5K for a crashed coupe up to 9-11K for a similar Z06
yah, a salvage title probably would have been smarter in retrospect. However Illinois laws around it are really annoying. You have to be a dealer to bid and have a special license to be able to register it for the street again. C5's have been stable for quite a while other than general market forces. For that sort of spread I'd probably go z06. There are enough parts and resale to make it worth it. I'd see if you can find something with headers on it. Its common and these days its a choice between poorly fitting chinese stuff and American ones in the multi thousand dollar range.
So this weekend was frustrating. I finished up the rear delrin bushings. Luckily the rear is a lot easier as you can press them out either direction. Its even possible with the arms still on the car. I skipped the rear ball joints for now. They are in okay condition and I just wanted it back together for my first event next weekend.
The camber lockout kit presents some issues with delrin in the rear however. The rear bushing on the LCA has no adjustment on a C5. It just acts as a pivot for the front lca bushing. Trouble is that delrin has zero compliance. I could only get the AMT kit set to S1 in the rear and only on the front side of the bushing. The rear side is s2. Talking to some other folks, this is common. T2 seems to be the best that anyone with delrin has done. To fix it you're probably looking at moving to a spherical in the rear LCA or moving back to something with compliance like poly. Maybe one of the offset delrin bushings? Adding an adjuster isn't really an option as it shares the bolt for mounting the rear sway bar. For now I'm going to see what my alignment guy can do with it. I shouldn't need as much rear camber with the delrin bushings. Hopefully it works out. I think I aimed for -1.7 before. I should be good with -1.4 or so with stiffer bushings
https://www.shredjesse.com/sites/default/files/c5-corvettes/CorvetteAlignmentGuideRev20110912.pdf
I also finally installed my diff mount. I got one of those ebay copies of the AFE bridge style one. I have nothing but bad things to say about it. Its huge so annoying to get in. The pads require moving the rigid brake lines. The ebay one has counter sunk holes for the diff bolts that not only required me to hog out with a router to get a socket in, but required me to drop the subframe a bit to get the ratchet in. Don't buy this. The AMT one looks better. Trackspec also has one I'd buy first if I did it again.
Lastly I installed the Strano rear sway bar with new whiteline end links. Despite what whiteline tells you, I don't think the rears are right. I had to shorten then ALL the way to get to stock length. Plus the Strano bar didn't have anything to line up the bushings like the front did so centering it was a pain. Don't get the whiteline adjustable links for the rear.
I did a few other misc things. I plugged the holes in my floor around the cage install with butyl. Mostly to help keep exhaust gas out of the car, but it was noticably louder after the cage install. I also finally painted the front plate cover to match the car. Rattle can job, but it works well enough for a race car.
So now comes the annoying part. I buttoned up the rear and put the wheels on. Then went to do the same on the front. Wheels won't fit. wtf. Did the moog ball joints have a longer stud? After googling some stock images I realize that I pressed the upper ball joints in backward. Suddenly having to flip the UCA made sense. I thought I just remembered wrong. After struggling for a couple hours trying to press them out on the car with my c clamp, I gave up and went to my buddy's house to use his shop press this morning. Not a big job with the press. Just another half day wasted taking them out and flipping then reassembling. Ugg.
Well its done for now and ready to get aligned. I think I'll go to the test and tune on my old ns2r tires. Burn those up and swap over to the brand new P1's before my first proper track day. I need to see if my sway bars are set right now and adjust my brake bias. Next project is probably going to be mounting my front tow stap. I had to remove the solid hook with the front vents. That and get proper summer fluids back in for the track day.
The last week has been frustrating. I went out to test drive the car to make sure nothing was wrong on Wednesday. The battery was dead, so I throw it on the charger overnight and in the morning its still at 3.5v, so ex-battery. NBD, this is why I tested. So get a cheapie Walmart one since the long term plan is a etx18l agm powersport battery. Put it in, go drive on Thursday night and have and ABS error. I just had all my suspension apart including the ABS sensors, so I figure I missed one. Friday morning I pop the RR wheel off and find an unplugged sensor, but drive to get the alignment. I fixed one of the ABS errors, but I'm still getting C1255.
Friday night I come out to pack my car for the test and tune on Saturday and there is a puddle coming out from under the car. Uh oh. The brand new battery is leaking acid everywhere. I quickly pull the battery and then make a baking powder soup to pour over the area. Eventually all the foaming stops and I wash it out with water to dilute anything that might still be down there. Battery goes back to Walmart, but they are my only option for another as all stores are closed at this point.
So the c1255 code on a Corvette means an internal unit error. Three common issues that I hear about. 1) Its a grounding issue. c5's have terrible grounds 2) its a power board issue which is potentially repairable. There are some other compatible boards and you might get lucky with a broken solder joint or a blown cap. 3) is the logic board itself. Apparently they covered it in goop and it has these hairline wires on it that like to break. Its effectively non repairable. So far I've cleaned two of the grounds to no effect at this point. I've had an intermittant ABS error show up, but it always went away just restarting.
So now I'm at the point of maybe having to do some serious work on my ABS. Do I swap to a mk60 system? It seems the most well trod path for c5 abs. Do I swap in a c5 2001+ abs. There are detailed instructions for this, but I'd just be getting another ABS with potential ice mode. Do I see if I can find a used 98-00 abs? They are expensive and no gaurantee that they won't explode in a few months. Do I try and put in a s197 abs? I hear they are good, but I haven't seen anyone do it on a corvette year. Do I get something like the delta motorsport ABS?
Interested to hear if anyone has suggestions on troubleshooting or path forward for ABS. I'm a little worried about doing track days and flat spotting a tire.
In reply to theruleslawyer :
Maybe I missed it by reading too quickly, but have you cleared the error and driven now with the new new battery? Given the spontaneous leak from the old new battery, I could believe that it would potentially give electrical faults just on its own malfunction. Maybe it is blind optimism, but maybe that was the culprit?
cyow5 said:In reply to theruleslawyer :
Maybe I missed it by reading too quickly, but have you cleared the error and driven now with the new new battery? Given the spontaneous leak from the old new battery, I could believe that it would potentially give electrical faults just on its own malfunction. Maybe it is blind optimism, but maybe that was the culprit?
Yah, I cleared it. c1255 is a current code, even with some driving. Right now I have a couple next steps
I have until the 30th to cancel a 2 day track weekend I have setup on the 17-18th and get the majority of my money back. Unfortunely that's not a lot of time. 2 weekends to work on it.
Well I have started down the path to a mk60 setup on my c5 corvette. I ordered a kit from 12GS. It comes with a harness, mk60e1 abs, and the yaw sensor. His kit allows the use of the c5/early c6 style wheel sensors. Since I already invested in quality hubs I don't really want to have to track down zr1 hubs. I still need to figure out how to plumb the brakes. I've started putting together a parts list. Note- This list is dynamic, so you might want to wait until you see I'm done before starting to buy parts off this list
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VB2kJoFS0LGB_yg4XNKnwN6D1iYRHp8A7BOs1SzGzhE/edit?usp=sharing
I can probably repurpose my flex line kit from when I put in the late c6 MC. The fittings are the same size and the earls are uniflare. I plan on mounting it pretty much below the master in the driver's fender. I'm still deciding how I want to run the out lines. I don't want to have to run completely new lines all over the car if possible. The RF Is close enough that it'll probably be easier to just make a line.
The rest I need to tap into the existing lines. I'd rather not run lines to the front of the engine if I can avoid it. Getting that space back at the front of the engine would be really nice. The ABS makes it a PITA to do anything up there. That means cutting and reflaring the stock lines. Most of them seem to run down the driver's side subframe and right past the new location. Will I be able to cut and reflare on the car? I've never done any hard line work before.
I also need to figure out a bracket for the mk60e1. Does anyone have a bolt pattern drawn up? Thread and pitch for the mount holes? Same with the Yaw sensor. I can start working on the mounts in fusion and probably 3d print some prototypes.
I got my kit from Alex this week. It came surprisingly quick.
The ABS harness has connections I need to chase down where to pick them up.
These two sound like I can run directly to the battery
- Red Band - Needs to be connected to 12v power through a fuse. Recommend a 30A fuse. Some users have gotten away with a 20A fuse, but OEM was 30A so that’s what I use.
- Orange Band - Same as the red banded wire. Needs its own 20-30A fuse. 30A recommended.
I assume this can be pickup up somewhere in the fuse box under the hood.
- Yellow Band - Needs to be connected to switched (key on) 12v power through a 5A fuse. This needs to be switched power, or the ABS unit will drain your battery when the car is off.
I think the C5 brake switch is positive when closed. I've heard that there are additional poles on the factory switch that might be used for the ground on press. Might be another version.
- Blue Band - This is the brake pedal/light switch signal. This tells the ABS module when the brake pedal is depressed and ABS should be enabled. This needs to be connected to ground when the brake pedal is pressed and an open circuit when not pressed. This is backwards from most cars (most cars are ground when not pressed and open circuit when pressed). Check your existing brake switch output and if it does exhibit the above behavior, you lucked out and you can just splice into the OEM brake pedal switch. If not, don’t fret; there are quite a few ways to do this, below are a few of the most common -
- Add an additional brake pedal switch. Using normally closed switch like one side of the the Painless 80176 and connect using the normally closed part of the switch. Connect to ground on one pin and the Blue Band wire of the ABS harness on the other.
- Add a brake pressure switch. Add this inline to one of the brake lines from the master cylinder to the ABS module. One pin should connect to ground and the other to the Blue Band wire of the ABS harness.
- Using a standard automotive relay to convert the signal from the OEM brake signal to the signal required by the MK60.
- Connect Pin 87 to Chassis Ground.
- Connect Pin 86 to OEM Brake light switch ‘hot when pressed’ wire
- Connect Pin 85 to Chassis Ground.
- Connect Pin 30 to the Blue Band wire of the ABS harness
- Connect a Zener Diode between Pin 86 and Pin 85 of the relay with the Band end at pin 86 to protect the switch from back EMF when power is removed
I assume you can just add a console MIL instead of trying to wire into the instrument cluster.
- Green Band - Connect to the positive side of the fault light (MIL). This is a 12v signal so ensure you’re using a 12v rated light
- Black Band - Connect to the negative side of the fault light (MIL)
I had already I made a drill template, which is over on the facebook group (which you should join if you are doing this) There is also a happy catcus garage discord that you should probably join. They sell a mk60 sensor convertor box, which I'm not using. However the community there is the right one to answer questions.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/807702710448164/permalink/1368785214339908
There is a helpful 3d model of the ABS out there as well
https://www.etsy.com/listing/1722585445/mk60e1-abs-reference-model?ref=yr_purchases
Last weekend I took off the fender and did a little planning with the model
This weekend the intent was to get the ABS mounted, but I ran into a couple issues. The isolation mounts I got had way too long of studs and I wasted a ton of time trying to get them cut down only to destroy a few with heat and then find out they are uncomfortably soft mounts. I went and ordered replacements that are like 4x as expensive from McMaster, but have successfully been used before. Unfortunately this derailed my plans as I want the ABS in its final location before I attempt to start bending brake lines.
https://www.mcmaster.com/4403K84/
I forged a bracket out of 1/4" aluminum. FYI if you need to bend aluminum, draw with a sharpie on both sides. Heat it with a torch until the sharpie disappears on both sides. Let it cool and it will be soft enough to bend. I snapped the first try done cold. It probably would have been smarter to just get some thinner steel to bend. I thought I was being smart and the aluminum would be easy. The intent is to put some rivnuts into the frame and bolt the bracket to it. That way I have a way to get the ABS off for service. I really wish I had a welder for this however. Side note- what home depot is charging for a couple short metric bolts is criminal. Order an assortment off amazon ahead of time.
Even though I couldn't progress with my bending, I did finish up the demolition. I got the old ABS out of the front of the car. It is HUGE compared to the mk60e1. Its going to be nice having all the extra room at the front of the engine. It'll make servicing the steering rack only moderately annoying as opposed to a day of swearing.
I also started running the harness for the wheel sensors. I didn't expect a full replacement. I assumed it would just tie into the existing harness somewhere. I have to wonder If I can't thin down the harness for the old ABS unit now. Running the wiring up and over the shroud instead of under it would be helpful as well. It won't be as pretty, but it should be a lot more servicable than the current setup when it comes time to remove the fans.
Nicopp lines are the easy button. They can kink if you try to bend them too much by hand, but no issues even with a small radius tool. The softer material helps the flares seal more easily. I put the stainless spring shield stuff on all mine to protect against rocks/debris. That has the added benefit of hiding some slight bends.
JMcD said:Nicopp lines are the easy button. They can kink if you try to bend them too much by hand, but no issues even with a small radius tool. The softer material helps the flares seal more easily. I put the stainless spring shield stuff on all mine to protect against rocks/debris. That has the added benefit of hiding some slight bends.
I got nicopp lines. No straightener, but the longest line is like 5' max. width of the car. Shouldn't be anything exposed under the car. All the rest of the mounts, etc came in this week so hopefully I'll get the physical setup done this weekend.
I made some good progress on the mk60 on Saturday.
First up was getting the ABS mounted. I got some donut isolators for the mount. If you shape the mount correctly you don't strictly need these, but I wanted to space the mount a little bit further out and it gives you the ability to adjust the angle a bit more.
Next up was drill and mount some rivnuts in the frame. Don't forget to spray the hole with paint. I used m10 bolts here. I put purple locktite on the bolts here as well so they don't vibrate out.
The new vibration isolators from McMaster fit perfectly and are a lot more confidence inspiring than the chinese junk from amazon. I put them in with purple locktite. No way to wrench hard on this, so just a touch of vibration resistance is needed.
All mounted in place
Next job was doing the hard lines. The plan is to run completely new lines from the ABS to the front of the car. The rear I will tie into the existing lines. I started out with practicing with my Capi flare tool (Links for everything are in my parts list.- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VB2kJoFS0LGB_yg4XNKnwN6D1iYRHp8A7BOs1SzGzhE/edit?gid=0#gid=0) My very first attempt at a flare below. Works great. Make sure you rub lube into the bottom of the die. Otherwise its pretty simple to use. You'll be reusing the fittings at the brake end of the stock lines so be sure to cut them off. Also I strongly recommend safety glasses and a mask under the car. There is a high chance of nasty fluid getting dripped on you while doing this.
The LF I just ran through the wheel liner. Its super short. Cut the line longer than you need and leave a little extra bends if needed. I cut this to exact length and it works, but another inch or two would give you more flexibility later, or if you screw up a flare.
I did the RF next. I used the original routing under the car along the side of the front beam of the sub frame. Where it would normally turn up to the old abs I sent it up between the steering shaft and the frame. I wanted to keep it away from the headers and my other choice was on the outside of the frame rail. I wanted to avoid something where the line could get pinched easily with a 4 off.
And the routing under the car. I added another strap on the drivers side. You may want to file down the rough casting protustions.
The two rear lines I cut next to the frame near the header collector. Its the most accessible place to cut. There was already a union there on my car from a previous repair. I reused that and added another. This was the most challenging spot to work. The ratcheting line cutter was clutch here. (in my list of parts) The Capri tool fit easily.
All the lines routed out to the ABS here, but not quite finished. I'm going to go do that today and start in on the electrical work
Finished up the hydraulic lines
also a better pic of routing near the steering shaft
Day 1 of wiring
First Up
- Red Band - Needs to be connected to 12v power through a fuse. Recommend a 30A fuse. Some users have gotten away with a 20A fuse, but OEM was 30A so that’s what I use.
- Orange Band - Same as the red banded wire. Needs its own 20-30A fuse. 30A recommended.
I routed these up an udder in into the cowl to protect them from the engine. A few zip ties to secure them out of the way of the wiper motors. Drill a hole to drop back in before the cowl gets thick and use a grommet. Both ran to the Battery terminal on the fuse box by the battery. I used inline 30A fuses for these. I may extend the routing or try to hide it in the fuse box eventually, but it works for now. I'm not happy with how professional it looks, but its functional.
- Yellow Band - Needs to be connected to switched (key on) 12v power through a 5A fuse. This needs to be switched power, or the ABS unit will drain your battery when the car is off.
This used the same cowl routing. I have an inline fuse for it, but haven't determined a source yet. I assume one is there in the fuse box.
- Blue Band - This is the brake pedal/light switch signal. This tells the ABS module when the brake pedal is depressed and ABS should be enabled. This needs to be connected to ground when the brake pedal is pressed and an open circuit when not pressed. This is backwards from most cars (most cars are ground when not pressed and open circuit when pressed). Check your existing brake switch output and if it does exhibit the above behavior, you lucked out and you can just splice into the OEM brake pedal switch. If not, don’t fret; there are quite a few ways to do this, below are a few of the most common -
- Add an additional brake pedal switch. Using normally closed switch like one side of the the Painless 80176 and connect using the normally closed part of the switch. Connect to ground on one pin and the Blue Band wire of the ABS harness on the other.
- Add a brake pressure switch. Add this inline to one of the brake lines from the master cylinder to the ABS module. One pin should connect to ground and the other to the Blue Band wire of the ABS harness.
- Using a standard automotive relay to convert the signal from the OEM brake signal to the signal required by the MK60.
- Connect Pin 87 to Chassis Ground.
- Connect Pin 86 to OEM Brake light switch ‘hot when pressed’ wire
- Connect Pin 85 to Chassis Ground.
- Connect Pin 30 to the Blue Band wire of the ABS harness
- Connect a Zener Diode between Pin 86 and Pin 85 of the relay with the Band end at pin 86 to protect the switch from back EMF when power is removed
I ran this into the cabin through a hole I drilled next to where the hood release cables enter. Its right next to the ABS mount. I didn't get to hooking it up today, but I did find that my c5 has a brake switch with an extra set of contact. These are closed when the pedal is up and open when the pedal is down. Wire one to ground and one to the ABS and it should work. If you have a c5 that uses the 2nd set, I found a brake switch with a 3rd set of the terminals. ACDelco GM Original Equipment D1541D. Unfortunately I don't have the plug. I also ordered a relay so I can just pick up the brake light wire if needed.
- Green Band - Connect to the positive side of the fault light (MIL). This is a 12v signal so ensure you’re using a 12v rated light
- Black Band - Connect to the negative side of the fault light (MIL)
I ordered a light https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B28376HL?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title&th=1 but its already a few days late and won't be here until too late. Luckily my first event is just an autocross so NBD if it fails and I don't notice it.
YAW/ REAR BRAKES
The Yaw harness I ran inside the same hole I made for the brakes above. I drilled a 1" hole so I could pass the whole connector as well as the rear brake speed sensors wires here.
Here's the loom coming out of the ABS and zip tied to the support
Next up the hole from the outside of the car
On the inside I used a bit of butyl rubber to stabilize, but there is a grommet as well. Its just above the dead pedal and fairly easy to drill from this side.
Then its just zip tied above the pedal box until I can stuff it under the center console trim on the other side
When I got the the padded armrest bin I needed to cut a channel for the yaw and two brake sensors here. I'll probably come back with some slit wire sleeve here soon.
The Yaw will be mounted at the rear of this console. It should be out of the way. I designed a mount in fusion 360. I'm printing it now. The Brake sensors continue into the cargo area. I drilled another 1" hole at the corners of the side bins. That drops the wire right in the corner of the wheel wells. I chose to go through the car to keep the wire more protected. Otherwise it would have been near the headers.
When I got the the wheel wells I entered the factory wire management as soon as possible.
I matched the length, cut the factory wire and then reused the back half of the factory clip. They hold onto the wiring loom really well and it clips into all the wire management. This is it done.
Both sides are slightly different, but similar strategy. Enter the factory wire protection early. Wrap the wires in tape to get them more wear resistance. Use the factory coverings, wire management and plug clips.
FRONT BRAKES
They come up by the washer tank. and run down the factory wiring to where the ABS used to be.
I joint the factory wiring loom as soon as possible. The routing is a little different right near the steering rack, but I reused as much of the factory loom protection as possible.
It was really hard to get shots of the routing so I made a short video to talk about it.
Other stuff
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