From my limited P-car knowledge, the TT's have the 'Mezger' engine, which was used as the foundation for many race cars and is supposed to be more reliable.
From my limited P-car knowledge, the TT's have the 'Mezger' engine, which was used as the foundation for many race cars and is supposed to be more reliable.
In reply to 2002maniac:
The 996TT doesn't have the IMS. So that's the more adult choice. Because reliability 
2002maniac wrote:BoxheadTim wrote: In reply to oldtin: Yeah, with hindsight I would've been better off to sell the Evo first and then buy a 996TT as a replacement.Are you suggesting the TT is more reliable? Or just more awesome (obvious)?
Engine-wise they are, at least if they're kept stock. Haven't heard much about durability issues when tuned properly, either, but you don't often see turbos with high mileage anyway.
They're also pretty much twice as expensive as a "regular" 996 with the possible exception of the C4S (turbo look), where the factor is closer to 1.5 instead of 2.
BoxheadTim wrote: It's already got a new waterpump and the AOS will be changed out as part of this work "while we're in there". We're pretty much addressing all the known trouble spots while trying to avoid having this mushroom into a complete rebuild.
That's the way to go. Sounds like the only other thing would be very careful inspection of the bottom of the cylinders to be sure they are sound. Enjoy when you get it back together!
The Porsche want has always been strong and every time I really think it may be time to quench the thirst, a thread like this comes along that just stops me dead in my tracks.
One thing that amazes me is that every time I watch an endurance race, the commentators go on and on about Porsche durability....what is the disconnect here?
I do understand that it is a full race build and they are only meant to go 24 hours on a rebuild, but doesn't some of this inherent reliability translate to a street driven 911?
thatsnowinnebago wrote: In reply to 2002maniac: The 996TT doesn't have the IMS. So that's the more adult choice. Because reliability
There's a 996TT X50 in this neck of the woods that when I last heard (a year or so ago), had 350k on the clock. Turbos got serviced at 250k. Owner drove it up and down the Eastern seaboard and racked up a ton of trouble-free miles on it.
gamby wrote:thatsnowinnebago wrote: In reply to 2002maniac: The 996TT doesn't have the IMS. So that's the more adult choice. Because reliabilityThere's a 996TT X50 in this neck of the woods that when I last heard (a year or so ago), had 350k on the clock. Turbos got serviced at 250k. Owner drove it up and down the Eastern seaboard and racked up a ton of trouble-free miles on it.
Must be nice, eh?
Still thinking this could potentially work out but it sucks that the drama had to start before the afterglow wore off...
In reply to imarcr2:
Everything you wanted to know about the IMS 'situation' - http://www.oregonpca.org/resources/ims-bearing-the-full-story/ - a bit of a long read, but VERY educational. And education is the key to buying any used car and minimizing the chances that something big will bite you. However -- nothing in life is risk-free....
I think it's at the point where the reputation of the M96 engines is deflating the value of the cars beyond the cost of the IMS fix. I realise that this is timing chain tensioners, but it's all part of the same issues.
I prefer the looks of the Boxster over the 996, I'm serious getting one in 18months or so, preferably an 03 986 S as 06 got the glass rear window. I figure something like this car http://houston.craigslist.org/cto/4887729574.html Get a PPI done and assuming the rest of it checks out pay for the LN IMS upgrade and new clutch at the same time. Fly in, drive home and enjoy.
In reply to Adrian_Thompson:
That's my thought on 996's as well. I think the Boxter is a better value, but I don't actually like them. Unfortunately I don't think I have any place in the fleet for a 996 so I probably won't get to try out that particular experiment.
imarcr2 wrote: The Porsche want has always been strong and every time I really think it may be time to quench the thirst, a thread like this comes along that just stops me dead in my tracks. One thing that amazes me is that every time I watch an endurance race, the commentators go on and on about Porsche durability....what is the disconnect here? I do understand that it is a full race build and they are only meant to go 24 hours on a rebuild, but doesn't some of this inherent reliability translate to a street driven 911?
The GT3 and Cup that form the base of those cars gets a completely different engine as well as the care and feeding that go into a pro race build.
One of my friends has the 996 GT3. Awesome car. Fantastic.
I've considered the 996 TT, because as others have noted it has a different motor than the regular 996 which has no IMS issues, but at the same time I think they are headed back up now over $40k, so ehhh.
In reply to Adrian_Thompson:
Keep in mind, the '06-'08 got the bigger bearing that's less likely to fail and can be replaced without engine disassembly. I believe the '00-'05 have to have the engine completely apart to upgrade the IMS.
MichaelYount wrote: In reply to Adrian_Thompson: Keep in mind, the '06-'08 got the bigger bearing that's less likely to fail and can be replaced without engine disassembly. I believe the '00-'05 have to have the engine completely apart to upgrade the IMS.
The M97 engine for 06-08 got larger bearings that are not externally serviceable. There is some debate over when the change was as some 05 987S’s and 997’s seem to have the M07 engine as well. Some of those are now starting to fail. I think in the long run pre 05's will hold their value better than the 06+ because a 'cheap' fix is doable on the early cars when you change a clutch rather than a full strip down. It wasn't until 09 (I think ) that they finally changed the design and fixed it for good.
Note. The jury is still out on the M97, some are saying the larger bearing fixed the issue, some are claiming there are still issues.
Sorry Adrian - got it backwards -- you are correct; it's the '06-'08 that require disassembly and are, consequently, fueling Renegade Hybrids LS swaps. 
And as mentioned earlier, I went with a '10 to avoid the issue altogether. FWIW - mine has been almost 5 years/23k with absolutely nothing other than routine maintenance which I do myself. Dead nuts reliable so far.
I purchased an 05 997 that had received the IMS bearing upgrade. I bought it in 2013 and have put 30k trouble free miles on it.
MichaelYount wrote: Sorry Adrian - got it backwards -- you are correct; it's the '06-'08 that require disassembly and are, consequently, fueling Renegade Hybrids LS swaps.
That's good to know. This is all fueled but my unwillingness to spend $40K on a new DD. The plan was to pass the Volvo on to the youngest when she is ready to drive, then buy a new Mustang or RS Focus. While I dont' know what the Focus will cost, every time I price out an S550 it comes to over $40K, I don't want to write that big a check. So my thinking is to buy a nice 986/7 S, have money in the back for IMS and spend some money on the Volvo to bring it back to as new-ish condition for another 5 years. Kid will then get a 3-4 year old Fiesta.
While I'd love a 2010+ Cayman, that would put me back in the ball park of a new RS or Mustang.
My google-fu is weak today -- where can I find a good resource on watercooled Porsche engines and the models/years (or chassis codes) they went in?
No single place. I'd read every thread on Rennlist, Pelican and 986Forum about IMS bearing issues and make up your own mind. There are x+1 opinions out there. Some people are convinced that the whole IMS bearing issue is overblown and it's really a less than 1% issue. Others are saying it's 15%+. Some are saying that Jake Raby (the developer of the LN IMS bearing fix) is exagerating the issue to line his own pocket. Some say he is the only one to have a decent bearing, others are saying he's using an off the shelf part.
All I can say is there is general consensus that:
1. The early 2.5L cars have less IMS bearing issues.
2. Mileage is zero indicator of the chance of it happening.
Beyond that there are more opinions than people.
All I know is more people I know who have or have owned M96 engined cars have had issues than not. If/when I get one, it will receive an LN bearing upgrade, new clutch and AOS before I take delivery.
P.S. the Pelican 986/987 and 996/997 forums are pretty quiet. I'd spend time in the off topic area too, lot's of talk goes on there as well about the pros and cons of the water cooled engines.
The link I listed above from the Porsche Club gives a pretty comprehensive description of what's going on with IMS over the various years. It's actually an LN Engineering document - go to their website for all sorts of info about the cars. They work closely with Jake Raby at Flat 6 Innovations and know a helluva lot about these cars.
Adrian - I'd urge you to drive a 4-5 year old Mustang before deciding. When shopping the Cayman, I was also considering the new 'Vette. I drove a 5 year old Cayman and a 5 year old 'Vette both with similar mileage (50k). That was eye opening. That ended my brief, misplaced consideration of the 'Vette. Got a feeling that a 5 year old Focus (were it available to compare) is going to be similar in terms of - what word should I use - degradation.
And, of course, everybody likes what they like...not necessarily what I like. Lest I display some pronoun dyslexia....getting you and me mixed up. 
MichaelYount wrote: Adrian - I'd urge you to drive a 4-5 year old Mustang before deciding. When shopping the Cayman, I was also considering the new 'Vette. I drove a 5 year old Cayman and a 5 year old 'Vette both with similar mileage (50k). That was eye opening. That ended my brief, misplaced consideration of the 'Vette. Got a feeling that a 5 year old Focus (were it available to compare) is going to be similar in terms of - what word should I use - degradation. And, of course, everybody likes what they like...not necessarily what I like. Lest I display some pronoun dyslexia....getting you and me mixed up.
PPssstt. I work for Ford, I've owned three Mustangs and driven all models of all ages. They age just fine and are a whole lot cheaper to own long term than an old Porsche of any model/period.
I wouldn't buy anything new-ish from any other manufacturer than my employer, but a 10-15 mid engine sports car I don't see as betraying Ford.
I had a opportunity to instruct and drive a regular C2 996 and a 4s 996 today at a SCCA starting line school. Both cars were fantastic. I actually liked the 4s more. I hugely approve of these cars.
My apologies for derailing the discussion with an update .
The shop has managed to source a good condition used intermediate shaft for a little more than we originally budgeted but still less than half price of a new one. They now have all the parts and hopefully there shouldn't be any more surprises as the engine is now slowly coming back together.
I won't get it back for at least another two weeks as they have multiple engines in the shop that are currently being rebuilt, plus I have to go on a business trip to the East Coast for the week when it's supposed to be ready. We'll see how things progress.
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