NICE! I can't imagine going that much faster around a track than that MG. Can't wait to see what else this monster is capable.
Love the garbage bintake
NICE! I can't imagine going that much faster around a track than that MG. Can't wait to see what else this monster is capable.
Love the garbage bintake
In reply to maschinenbau :
We need to start calling our cars forkie.
I'm trash!
so, I was a semi-crazy Buffalo, and drove myself out-and-back to Chicago to help one of the GridLife staff and an Advanced HPDE driver this past weekend at GridLife Autobahn. That kept me pretty busy, but I made sure to keep an eye out for nocones, and managed to lend a hand a couple of times. Unfortunately, I was scrambling around a bit, so I didn't take many pictures; for which I apologize.
One outward observation: The car was a bit of a trip for some of the GridLife regulars. It was interesting watching some of the reactions; some "got it" on the concepts, some less so. I reckon getting more challenge cars (of each variety of build {full blown to mild}) would probably be of benefit to GRM and GridLife. Dan did a good job preaching the story of what challenge is, and the particular mentality required to excel at it.
First take away thought:
Man, the LMP 360 sounds awesome on track. It has a deep throaty boxer rumble that is very unique, and engaging... without being annoying. Once I matched the sound to the car, it was very easy to keep track of it even though it was lapping around an aircooled Porsche, a couple of loud S2k's, and a whole gaggle of SundaeCup fits.
Second Take Away thoughts/quotes:
nocones said:
The Subaru handling was very balanced with neutral to slight understeer at speed. Braking is simply fantastic. It feels like you can really lean on the car in the corners.
over in the "LMP360 Aero Thread"... (aside, wow, almost a year ago!?)... I did some rough analysis of the foils nocones had produced, and made the following recommendations:
sleepyhead the buffalo said:
I'd suggest working up building a 4 or 5" chord 2nd element to the rear wing out of 1/2" ply that's supported at the ends and the middle (so the gap stays consistent). It seems pretty clear to me that the front elements you've built so far can generate quite a bit more downfroce than the rear can (moment arms, depending).
[...]
{later post)
[...]
so, if you can, back [the main rear foil] off to 15deg... tuft the bottom of the wing, and point a GoPro at it when you're doing 60mph to give us an idea if/how-much separation is going on and where.
So, it's somewhat gratifying to hear that there's a possibility some of that advice may have help end up with a relatively benign aero-handling that seems to be slightly rear-biased.* Nocones and I managed a few brief conversations, and I think adding some adjustability into the rear elements would be helpful moving forward to tune the handling (there may be a need/reason to add some adjustability into the front second element in the future... but less so the front main element, imho).
Here's where the apology about not taking photos really comes, in the main. I actually managed to meet nocones up at grid before the last timed TA session. I've been working with some oil flow visualization that stafford1500 has elaborated on in one of his past articles. It's not the same formula he's given, and I'm still playing around with the "base ingredients"; but it was enough that I figured there was some opportunity and benefit in slapping some oil on LMP360 and and see what/if could be learned from that. I appreciate stafford's past help on shortening the learning curve of what mixture to use; as well as the bit of oil flow visualization I did while in college.
Unfortunately, while Dan and I were talking the results of that over... and pondering what his Vmax seemed to be... one of the GridLife staff production crew rocked up and had been instructed to get some coverage of the car. Thus, I had to quickly scrub the red-dyed oil off the car, and didn't end up getting pictures of the patterns (although, I still need to find a dye that really shows up well on black surfaces, and would have photographed well {which I've ended up working on more often than not so far!}).
The biggest takeaways from the oil flow were that the main rear foil was working about as expected out-board of the cab; although the "data" was a bit obscured by the duct tape on the underside of the wing. Another takeaway was that the second rear foil was getting good attached flow for about 60% of its under-chord. However, one of the following factors was leading to the flow to separate from the second foil: the gap to the main foil, the curvature of the second foil, or the angle it was at. There's a chance that the oil was also indicating that the lack of a cab-top and the bluff curvature of the back of the 360 were contributing to flow instability into the rear foil in the middle.
There was also an area of stagnation around the back engine cover... which had some additional rubbermaid gurneys mounted to its back edge at my suggestion to try and help extract more air from the engine compartment. I suspect that this means the rear panel of the engine cover is mounted "down" too much and might need to be raised (there's also a number of other of the car's volumes that are contracting in that space which might be also contributing to the flow slowing over the rear deck).
I probably owe a third apology about if any of the dyed oil ended up "not on the outside" of the car. And that I didn't manage to get oil into the tunnels (although, I've had some difficulty with getting "good" results from underbody flows in the past).
I had oil down in a few other locations, but the results were a bit less important and/or conclusive currently. And, without pictures, it probably isn't worth bring it/them up right now.
in conclusion:
I'm pretty chuffed that LMP360 did as well as it did. I'm excited to see it/nocones continue to develop. and tantalized by the possibility that there might be more data to crunch in the future (I already "have" a bit of crunching to play around with, as it is).
Major Congratulations to nocones for successfully surviving LMP360's first TimeAttack shakedown and competition!
*I want to stress that I'm not taking credit for the results of this. I don't know if nocones got other aero input on the balance. And, as I stated, the above was just "advice"/"comment on the internet"... ultimately the work on the car, the creation of the foils/elements, their installation, etc... is all the work of nocones. to resort to an analogy: he walked through the dark forbidding forest, and I just handed him a flashlight before he wandered into it.
In reply to sleepyhead the buffalo :
Buffalo Wisdom, Time Attack Awesome.
Well it sounds like the EJ survived the heat okay. Great work on dealing with everything!
Great write up, fix and development as always.
So awesome.
In reply to sleepyhead the buffalo :
So you're saying I need to get fdat to a gridlife event???
In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :
I'll do it if you do it
maschinenbau said:In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :
I'll do it if you do it
You're on!
Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to sleepyhead the buffalo :
So you're saying I need to get fdat to a gridlife event???
maybe?
nocones has the advantage of having run with them before in Advanced HPDE, so (afaik) it was easy for him to slide into TA. I dunno what your driving background is (I know you and maschinenbau have both done autocross, not so sure about HPDE?), and how easy it would be to slide into TA or HPDE? I think their Club weekends have some availability (NJMP & Heartland), Mid-Ohio is sold out / waitlist... although you could sign up for the "Car Show" portion of Mid-Ohio and help nocones as crew? I've personally found that helping as "crew" has been a cheap/fulfilling way to get a taste for GridLife events over the past couple years; and have seen the benefit a couple of extra hands can bring to someone participating in TimeAttack vs. HPDE.
edit
My plan right now is to be at MidOhio as crew again for RobertsonRacing during GLTC; and probably helping another car in StreetMod. Despite NJMP being "only 4hours away", it's probably not do-able, unless I do an out-and-back for a single day... and even that's a stretch with balancing sleepywife's priorities.
In reply to sleepyhead the buffalo :
I would not of been able to pull off a aero package that works without the discussions, feedback, and knowledge on this forum provided by you, Stafford and others. I have no issue with you guys taking some level of credit for what has been done.
Everything I've managed to achieve here is from effort and knowledge other people have poured into me. The knowledge available to expand skills and solve problems on this board is immense. Yes I did the physical work but you all participating actively in this and other build threads are a big part of why it has worked.
I'm going to loop around and discuss some of Sleepys points when I get a chance but I wanted to post the video of a lap of the car.
You really get a feel for how stable the car is.
It just goes, relatively undramatically where you point it. Other then the shifter needing work it's basically easy to drive.
This lap is nearly 5 seconds faster then the fastest I went in my MG. You can see how much lift and coast and less then full track I am using as well. There is more in it. Probably quite a bit once the Turbo goes on.
It's so smooth that it leaves the impression you're not pushing very hard. You should be very proud of what you've done with this build.
Do you intend to put something between you and the front tire we can see in the video? are you concerned about debris coming up into the passenger compartment.
And, yes, looks like your weren't working very hard. Though I'm sure you are.
In reply to vwcorvette (Forum Supporter) :
Yes it will get side panels.. eventually. Hopefully by next event depending on how long new radiator plumbing takes.
In classic scramble/event/break until Scramble before next event cycle I haven't done much with the car this week.
I did select and purchase an ECU. I know I told myself I would buy a big boy ECU (Link/Haltech/etc) but when they all priced to about $2500 with harness I just couldn't bring myself to pull that trigger. My needs are so simple, I am not running lots of loads and accessories, there is no CANbus to connect to.
I whittled it down to a MS2 with expansion, Megasquirt based "Gold box", a Microsquirt, and the SpeedyEFI. The SpeedyEFI offered almost every default option of the MS2 at a lower cost. It uses the same Firmware and software and natively supports the Subaru timing triggers.
So this will be an adventure to install and tune.
Also to support future turbo I'm looking for OEM WRX or STI injectors. Something in the 550cc / 52 lb/hr range. If anyone has something sitting around I will give you money for it.
nocones said:I'm going to loop around and discuss some of Sleepys points when I get a chance but I wanted to post the video of a lap of the car.
You really get a feel for how stable the car is.
It just goes, relatively undramatically where you point it. Other then the shifter needing work it's basically easy to drive.
This lap is nearly 5 seconds faster then the fastest I went in my MG. You can see how much lift and coast and less then full track I am using as well. There is more in it. Probably quite a bit once the Turbo goes on.
Nice. Can't wait to see/hear it when the turbo gets added.
This car is going to be a MONSTER with the added power from the turbo. I CANT WAIT!
This is hands down my favorite build of all time. Just an incredible achievement and frankly... work of art. It deserves all the attention it gets and more. It would be sick to get it on Leno's garage!
In reply to B13Birk :
Thanks. That would be cool to get it on something like that mostly just to see Leno's collection. There is lots of stuff I could probably try to engage it in if I took it out to CA but man that's a hell of a pull.
This weekend my town hosted a "big" ~270 car car show. I decided to take the 360 down since it was only like 4 blocks away. I still trailered it though because I don't like tickets.
When I was backing onto the trailer after Gridlife I crunched the floor edge. So I patched it up and reglassed it then threw some paint on.
Other then that I took it to the show and apparently got assigned to the Giant Wang parking section.
This is a very classic car/hotrod focused show so I expected a wierd vibe for my car. Reactions where mixed but a steady stream of people took pictures and kids universally loved the thing.
And I even managed to bring home some hardware!
Again I'm not a car show guy but it was still enjoyable and nice to walk around and check out other people's cars.
Now back to the garage for Radiatin..
Also also.. while installing the diffusers I happened to look at the inside.
Sleepy talked about trying to get flow vis inside the diffusers. I'm not sure what those splotches are but either he was successful or the sanding dust mixed with splashed water to create a rudimentary flow vis.
Here in this photo down is the expansion direction. I'm no flow expert, but to me there clearly is some evidence of some amount of flow at velocity that lives adjacent to the the top surface of the diffuser. The top is basically right after expansion begins.
Dunno enough to determine anything else but clearly air be movin.
Early morning, an empty trailer, and a pile of cash. Is there a more dangerous combination?
I ran into issues (time) resolving the cooling issue for GL New Jersey. I ended up throwing together a partially complete temp solution of just moving the radiator out to the sidepods vertical like a parasite on the side of the car. Given that it was going to be a $700+ pull plus 3 days of vacation to find out my temporary solution was or wasn't sufficient, I decided skipping that event was probably best choice.
Then an opportunity presented itself for me to fill some of that weekend anyway. .
More to come...
nocones said:Early morning, an empty trailer, and a pile of cash. Is there a more dangerous combination?
depends on the size of the pile.
The trailer is no longer empty, and the cash pile is gone.
What did I buy? An EJ257 that was intended for as it turns out a Hong Norr 818. That project evaporated and the motor sat. It had been rebuilt and modified and waited. Eventually it was listed on FBM and I responded having no idea it was being sold by a fellow $2000 Challenge veteran.
A very generous deal was struck and now this 300+ WHP capable engine will power the LMP360.
This is a far cry from the planned ~200WHP EJ251 NA/T build so what happened? Well after I put together the entire cost to do the NA/T it started to make sense to look at used turbo engines. This was by far the best one available.
I'm looking forward to learning more about what I bought.
I'm also looking forward nervously to taking something with equal power to weight ratio to the Free Lotus on track. It's going to be... Quick.
Makes me feel all tingly in places!
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