2017 Camaro SS LT1 Misfires - Dealer Can't/Won't Fix

I picked up the car this morning. I had a lengthy chat with the service manager. I requested their internal file, but he wasn't really able to give me anything of use. I was hoping to get that info so I could take it to prospective dealer #3 in a week when the CEL comes back on. They gave me a bunch of GDS2 output summary sheets from the car, which I had requested. He also agreed to provide me with written acknowledgement that at an earlier date they had said I could use my OBDII code reader. I brought up the idea that they could have checked the spark plugs for carbon build up after their road tests and he blushed. He's a decent human being, I'd go so far as to say I'd recommend him for employment at another dealership. Unfortunately, his boss is not very ethical.

Yet again I could tell the car was broken while I was still in visual distance of the dealership. There were pops from the exhaust at the first stop light and a little after that the idle was very rough (ie. felt like it was misfiring). I'm not permitted to plug in my OBDII reader, so I can't say definitively that it was misfiring, but I'm confident it was. The GDS2 summary sheets they provided after changing the plugs show long term fuel trims at idle at different times of -14/-12, -15/-13, -15/-13, -16/-14, -16/-14. I think that's reasonable confirmation that the car was knowingly returned broken and the car runs rich when there is no exposure to my OBDII reader.

I know you are not the original owner, but can you claim lemon law on this one?

^ I'm not in the US, so yes/no. There is a binding arbitration process for cars in my situation and buy-back is one of the possible outcomes. I have to convince an arbitrator that the car should be bought back. I'm going to do one more round at another dealership to ensure I have a better chance of winning. I'm sure they'll simply change the spark plugs again.

As far as I can tell GM has no issue with what is happening to me.  The low-ethics fixed operations manager indicated GM was not happy with the money they had spent on my car without solving the problem.

Why not go back to the same dealership again? I know you've gone there a few times, but I think a little patience would pay off. At least they aren't charging you like the first dealership.

^ My biggest concern is the behavior of the fixed operations manager at the second dealership. This was the 5th visit and he went out of his way to not fix the car, he suggested to GM it might be my fault because of the OBDII reader which they previously sanctioned, etc. When I spoke to him on a couple of occasions he was clearly fishing around trying to find an angle. (he suggested he's given his cars ECU tunes in the past, maybe I did to this car, etc?) If when they had the car, the new spark plugs weren't becoming carboned up and the long term fuel trims were in spec, then maybe he'd have a point. I feel his motivation is to screw me to improve the financial and/or GM relationship position of the dealership. I don't think it's worth going back there to try to discover how clever he can be. If I go back there, I think there is a chance he will outright fabricate a new story. You know how it feels when you deal with scummy people? It felt like that. No one else there behaved that way. They also refuse to bring in an engineer and they are clearly making zero progress (twice suggested they likely would, then changed their minds).

Thoughts?

This situation sucks.

Back in 2006, the fuel pump on my Mom's Ford Escape went out while she was visiting me at college. The car was out of warranty due to age but only had 10,000 miles on it. She called Ford to complain about it and they paid for the new fuel pump and 50% of the labor. She was very happy with their response when they could have told her she was E36 M3 out of luck. Not sure if she would get the same response today but I am sure it is why she bought a 2018 Escape last year to replace the 2001.

I have had a similar experience with my 2008 Ford Focus. It needed a new throw out bearing. Took it to 2 dealerships who refused to admit there was a problem. Finally the 3rd dealership had a tech sit in the car with me after they 'couldn't replicate the problem'. It only took 10 seconds of me demonstrating the sound with clutch out but no sound with clutch in for the tech to say, yep needs a throw out bearing.

3rd try was the charm for me in that case. I really hope it is for you also!

My takeaway from this is that Canadians are ordinarily super polite and nice as the stereotype goes, but when enforcing "policy" the American in North American swoops in and takes over.

In reply to Snrub :

That actually sounds reasonable now that you explain it like that. Trust your gut, you're the one living this situation out.

Having worked in the business. It does seem like the riot act is being read to you and you need to go somewhere else if there is any chance of this having a positive outcome. 

 

I had a Friend... was also his last name that had a high rpm misfire on an LS powered Camaro back in the day.  The dealer didn't want to fix it or mess with it, and they couldn't replicate his issue because they simply didn't drive the car hard enough.  He took the service mgr for a drive which I think scared the you know what out of the service manager and told him, "there that; fix that!"  And he also threatened to make signs and camp out in front of said dealership talking to anyone that came up to tell them how the dealer treated their customers.  Not sure if you have the stomach or mild insanity my Friend had, but he got his car fixed. 

Pretty clear that the dealer doesn't know how to fix your car and isn't interested in having it tie up one of their bays and techs while they try and fix it.

Sucks that they refuse to kick it up the chain...

CEL came back on this morning.

I spoke to customer care. They are going to open an inquiry into my allegations that the dealership #2 deliberately didn't fix my vehicle. They said I could speak to a customer care (regional?) manager once the car has been seen by a dealership and the same issue was confirmed. They asked for the GDS2 data from the dealer which has the LTFT information I mentioned earlier. I also mentioned how I could tell the car still had a problem at the first stop light after picking it up. Customer care wants me to go back to the same dealer. I explained why I cannot and they objected pretty strongly. They said repeatedly, another dealer may refuse to service my vehicle because it would "steal business", etc. (I'm guessing that would be an excuse to avoid getting stuck with my lemon) They did say I can have it towed anywhere and they'd have to service it. He then proceeded to tell me that a solid CEL was the more severe one, flashing more intermittent. I politely explained he had it reversed, but still recommended I get it towed. I'm not sure if he was trying to give me a hint.

I now have written confirmation dealership #2 initially sanctioned the OBDII code reader, which is a relief.

I made an appointment at dealer #3 for later in the week. We'll see what happens.

Snrub said:

CEL came back on this morning.

I spoke to customer care. They are going to open an inquiry into my allegations that the dealership #2 deliberately didn't fix my vehicle. They said I could speak to a customer care (regional?) manager once the car has been seen by a dealership and the same issue was confirmed. They asked for the GDS2 data from the dealer which has the LTFT information I mentioned earlier. I also mentioned how I could tell the car still had a problem at the first stop light after picking it up. Customer care wants me to go back to the same dealer. I explained why I cannot and they objected pretty strongly. They said repeatedly, another dealer may refuse to service my vehicle because it would "steal business", etc. (I'm guessing that would be an excuse to avoid getting stuck with my lemon) They did say I can have it towed anywhere and they'd have to service it. He then proceeded to tell me that a solid CEL was the more severe one, flashing more intermittent. I politely explained he had it reversed, but still recommended I get it towed. I'm not sure if he was trying to give me a hint.

I now have written confirmation dealership #2 initially sanctioned the OBDII code reader, which is a relief.

I made an appointment at dealer #3 for later in the week. We'll see what happens.

here's hoping this visit provides forward progress

I'm sorry for you. This is just absolutely ridiculous. 

I'm excited to hear the culprit when this issue is finally resolved. 

Snrub wrote :

[quote]

They are going to open an inquiry into my allegations that the dealership #2 deliberately didn't fix my vehicle.

[/quote]

you continue to amaze me with your own self sabotage.   how do you prove intent?   your problem is that your vehicle is not fixed.   berkeley "deliberately".   shut your berkeleying mouth and deliver them a car with a CEL.   the only thing you say is "my car is under warranty and has a CEL.   fix it.   thank you."

^ I very much value what you have to say.  ..But that's what happened. They knew it was broken based on the information they had. I posted the data above, am I mistaken? I could tell it was broken within hundreds of feet of driving. If they had tested it, they would have known too. If they looked at the plugs, I suspect (but do not know), they would be in the process of fowling. How am I to get it fixed when they are refusing service and refusing to bring in an engineer? Sitting back and saying "fix it" isn't working, that's what happened last time and look where I am. Thoughts?

Snrub said:e then proceeded to tell me that a solid CEL was the more severe one, flashing more intermittent.

That is a clue that the person on the other side of the phone is not at all conversant in vehicle diagnostics.

Solid MIL means you have a problem.  FLASHING one, however, means "Shut this thing down ASAP, you got issues!"

Flashing MIL generally means a misfire so severe that it is a "catalyst damaging event", but it is used for any issue that means you need to shut the engine off as soon as it is safe to do so.

Yesterday I received a flashing CEL, but it turned off after a short period. Dealership #3 said they think I should bring it in, so I have an appointment. The flashing CEL happened on the highway accelerating towards the top of 2nd gear. There were audible backfires ("bang-bang-bang") and hesitation. I normally avoid freeways because I don't want to be stranded too far from home if the car stops functioning. The solid CEL I posted about last time turned off a day after, so I had to cancel the appointment.

I am very surprised the CEL didn't come on sooner. The car has been running poorly, at times very poorly, but the severity of symptoms is still somewhat intermittent. Prior to the CEL, sometimes the idle will bounce by up to 200rpm, with more severe pops from the exhaust that might be classified as a backfires. The misfires are sometimes to the point where it's slightly uncomfortable to sit in the car at idle. I get periodic backfires, plenty of exhaust of popping, rough running characteristics, hesitation, etc.

I spoke to a manager at GM customer care yesterday. They denied my request to have my case escalated and taken care of by someone more senior.

You have far more patience than me.  I'd have told them to put me on the line with someone who was competent.

In reply to Knurled. :

I would have driven the thing through the showroom several pages ago. Of course it would have stalled on me a coasted just shy of the doors but still...

Knurled. said:

You have far more patience than me.  I'd have told them to put me on the line with someone who was competent.

I’d have blown my top a while ago.  I dont take people lying to my face very well. And I work in service. If i were to give anyone this type of runaround, id have been fired long ago. 

For our fleet of vehicles at work, chevy trucks were banned for a while. When it took 3 transmission swaps or rebuilds to handle 175-200k of highway miles on 3 of the trucks, they had had enough. 

Are they not willing to have someone ride with you for you to drive it “right” and get it to screw up? Can you not just go give it hell and get it to screw up majorly? 

Maybe have them put in writing that they “fixed” it and therefor it should be fine to go drive it as it was intended. Let roadside assistance tow it in a few times. 

I think I asked this 5 pages ago, but are the techs driving the car after they “fix” it?

I bought my first and likely last new vehicle in 2013.  Got a 4 door Rubicon.  Knock on wood, it hasn’t given me any trouble except leaking (found a fix on YouTube) and the AM / FM went out (Sirius, CD, and Bluetooth all still work so berk it).  But seriously, I think new cars are just too complicated.  That’s compounded by the “idiocracy” that seems to dominate service industry these days.  I think I’ll just putter along with the Jeep, old diesel truck, and C5Z (hey, should be able to keep at least one on the road) until I can snag a used Tesla.  Or a new Tesla.  I’m about done with ICE anyway.

Make a video of it when it’s acting up. There shouldn’t be any popping in the exhaust at idle.  This car needs to self destruct. Drive it running like E36 M3 til it grenades. Might not want to show them that video....