I think the key difference between a 3 and 4 point belt is that the buckle slides on a 3 point, so as your torso pulls on the upper belt, it tightens the lap belt to help prevent submarining. Personally, I'd only ever use a 4 point ASM at an autocross, not track days.
In reply to LanEvo :
Because I think a 4 Point ASM harness is enough for just a weekend car and a bit of track days.
In reply to Jvella36 :
Then why spend the money and time on a rollbar and fixed back race seats? You've spent the money and done the hard part already, get proper 5-6 point harnesses.
On all my cars I've been able to keep the factory 3 point seat belts, which I use on the street.
docwyte said:In reply to Jvella36 :
You've spent the money and done the hard part already, get proper 5-6 point harnesses.
This.
I don't even get why this is a question. You can even buy a quality, certified 5-6 point harness for much less than a 4pt Schroth ASM setup. You know this is the correct answer, but wanted someone to help reinforce what you already wanted to do (4 pt instead of 5-6).
In reality, your car, your body. Take whatever risks you want, doesn't impact me.
In reply to z31maniac :
No, the thing is that either with a 4 point or 6 point you can still suffer from whiplash, yes 5/6 points would help you with the ASM but even a Schroth ASM 4 point would, so why do a 6 point for the street?
Jvella36 said:In reply to z31maniac :
No, the thing is that either with a 4 point or 6 point you can still suffer from whiplash, yes 5/6 points would help you with the ASM but even a Schroth ASM 4 point would, so why do a 6 point for the street?
Huh? Isn't the only thing safe on the street your OEM gear? On the track, race seat + 5/6-point + HANS is the obvious choice. Auto-x, do whatever you want because it's you and a parking lot.
Jvella36 said:In reply to z31maniac :
No, the thing is that either with a 4 point or 6 point you can still suffer from whiplash, yes 5/6 points would help you with the ASM but even a Schroth ASM 4 point would, so why do a 6 point for the street?
If you have the fixed back seat, the roll bar, and a 5/6 pt harness.............you should also be wearing some type of head restraint like a HANS. But again, your body, your choice, you decide what risk level you are comfortable with.
I still have a bit of limp from wrecking my motorcycle at Hallett back in April 2007 (and the months of post-concussion syndrome were lovely too), so I take on-track safety very seriously.
I do have a roll bar and fixed back seats, I also have 4 point FIA harnesses but I was thinking in switching with ASM Schroth harnesses but my problem is that this car is used for the street and sometimes for events which require to have fixed back seats, harness and roll bar so obviously I'm not going to revert to my stock interior every time I drive it on the street because it's not practical and buying another car just for the events is not an option for me either. So what I'm asking is, what is the best setup that I can use at this point?
Jesus. A frigging 5-6 point harness! AND the factory 3 point seat belt for driving on the street. I've done that setup in almost all my street/track cars with fixed back seats and rollbars. It works great, you have the proper safety equipment for the track and a normal seatbelt for the street.
+1
I used to daily drive my race Miata; for the track it was 5 point harness + HANS, for the street & autocross it was the standard seatbelt.
Per the SCCA rule book I removed the airbag for races; I'd put it back and run it on the street and autocross.
There are so many stories of racing drivers who were killed simply because they didn't have an anti-submarine strap that in my opinion it's not worth messing with 4 points.
In reply to docwyte :
The 3 point seat belt is dangerous to use with a fixed back seat reason 1 would be that if you ever roll with the car you'd be moving around so much that you could risk hitting your head with the roll bar & reason 2 is that the factory seat belt isn't meant to be used with a fixed bucket seat because it doesn't stand flush against your body, I am not making this up, these are facts stated by professionals. So in my case running a 3 point belt with roll bar & fixed back seats is not an option, I rather revert to a stock interior or use a 4 point harness in this case.
In reply to Jvella36 :
And yet Porsche delivers many of their cars with 3 point belts and fixed back seats. Look up my build thread here on both my E36 M3 and my Porsche 996 turbo and study my seat pictures carefully....
In reply to docwyte :
They deliver their cars with regular 3 point seat belts because they are not allowed to equip their cars with 4 point harnesses because it's not legal in many different places and the seat is setup in a way that the 3 point shoulder belt sits properly, if I try to put a regular seat belt on my omp trse seat the seat belt won't sit properly because of the shoulder bolster and also porsche seats come with the holes to equip it with harnesses after you purchase it if youd like, if its not meant to have harnesses they wouldnt have the holes in the first place.
Porsche has to abide by all sorts of safety regulations that a private individual doesn't. Do you really think they're going to sell a car with a safety setup that hasn't been heavily tested and approved? Come on....
You want someone to tell you that your plan is the best way to go and the safest way to go. None of us have. We've all given you proper solutions. At this point I suggest you do what you want to do...
In reply to docwyte :
No Im not seeking approval for my setup I just cant see how it can be safer with a regular seat belt when Ive read on different forums that it's not safe to have a regular seat belt while having a roll bar and fixed bucket seats. I appriciate that you gave me your opinion I just need to think about it and apart from all that, my roll bar is custom and the bolt location for the regular seat belts on the b pillar is being used by the roll bar because its held by brackets there as well apart from the floor and also the roll bar main hoop is right next to the b pillar so I guess I still can't use the regular seat belts unless I remove the roll bar... I don't know Im confused thats why I posted here in the first place.
Porsches "fixed" seats aren't actually fixed, and also incorporate a side airbag.
I would call Harrison Motorsports and discuss it with them. There is a lot of great information available on Schroth's ASM products/testing. They will be able to provide you with an approach that ticks your boxes without unduly impacting your personal safety in the process.
In hindsight, figuring this out before installing particular safety devices (roll bars, etc) may have helped you avoid some of these compromises. Good luck!
Olemiss540 has an excellent suggestion. Schroth makes a quality product and consultanting someone who knows their product well is your best bet.
Out of curiosity, if you had a stock drivers seat how long would it take to swap out? I did this in one of my cars years back and it only took me about 30 minutes (tops) to swap back in the stock seat. The car was being daily driven and the race seat wasn't especially comfortable.
I looked at the type of seat you have and yeah the stock 3 point belt likely wouldn't come across your chest properly. You could thread the lower half through the hole in the side of the seat but you'd still have the upper body issue.
The issue many of us have, myself included, with harness set up on the street is that without a HANS device of some sort your risk goes up. Yes many of us (myself included) raced for years without one. I've even had 2 street legal cars that only had a 5 point harness in them but I wouldn't do that now.
You're other alternative is to change the seat to something that works for the track and the street.
In reply to red_stapler :
Those are the newer ones. The earlier cars, like my 996 came with standard one piece racing buckets without airbags.
Takata's "race series" 4 point belts have the ASM shoulder strap feature, but can also use the 6-point antisubmarine strap. Meaning you can wear them as 4 point belts or can fish the anti-submarine straps out when you feel they're necessary.
Im not sure what other forums you've been on but the guys on here, in general, are the real deal and I would trust their advice over just about anyone else on any other forum. Its one of the rare corners of the internet where these guys (and gals) have real world experience and sometimes decades of it.
It's your life, but I would take their advice.
I will message schroth maybe they have a solution and I get to keep my roll bar and seats, I need to get some more information about their harnesses because they do some harnesses which have a purpose to be used on the street.
Thank you everyone for your help !
Jvella36 said:I will message schroth maybe they have a solution and I get to keep my roll bar and seats, I need to get some more information about their harnesses because they do some harnesses which have a purpose to be used on the street.
Thank you everyone for your help !
I have an unused set of Scroth ASM 4 points that I may not end up using, thanks to this thread... Let me know if you have questions that I can answer by looking at them and/or taking pictures.
Matthew
5 and 6 point are also not federally allowed for street use. No red/orange release button. Seriously. Rescue and EMT are looking for that in a crash. Not a cam lock or other non-standard release mechanism. Track workers know the difference.
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