bravenrace wrote: In reply to NOHOME: No, I don't think that was the question.
Ok, but it is now: Bravenrace, what car would you pay 26k for?
bravenrace wrote: In reply to NOHOME: No, I don't think that was the question.
Ok, but it is now: Bravenrace, what car would you pay 26k for?
I don't need to make a comparison to say I won't pay that much for the FRS. I could give you a list of 4 or 5 cars I'd rather have for that money or less, but then that would just be fodder for an argument, wouldn't it? Just because I would buy something else for that amount, doesn't mean you should. And no, it's not out of my price range.
bravenrace wrote: I don't need to make a comparison to say I won't pay that much for the FRS. I could give you a list of 4 or 5 cars I'd rather have for that money or less, but then that would just be fodder for an argument, wouldn't it? Just because I would buy something else for that amount, doesn't mean you should. And no, it's not out of my price range.
Same here... I don't have anything against the Toybaru nor do I really think it's overpriced, but I could list a bunch of cars - both new and used - I'd rather have in the low-high $20K range.
bravenrace wrote: I don't need to make a comparison to say I won't pay that much for the FRS. I could give you a list of 4 or 5 cars I'd rather have for that money or less, but then that would just be fodder for an argument, wouldn't it? Just because I would buy something else for that amount, doesn't mean you should. And no, it's not out of my price range.
I did not ask to be a jerk or start an argument. I asked because I would really like to know what else is available new that would provide the rear wheel drive performance of the twins. Have you test driven them yet?
If it is front wheel drive, I don't really care how little it cost; that makes it a toaster in my mind and not worth much regardless of performance numbers.
If we are talking used car versus new, then the answer could be Miata, S2000, or BMW. But I was really more interested in new car comparison.
NOHOME wrote: I did not ask to be a jerk or start an argument.... If it is front wheel drive, I don't really care how little it cost; that makes it a toaster in my mind and not worth much regardless of performance numbers.
really?
Id like to interject for a moment....youre asking about a car who's performance is on par with the twins. Thats what youre willing to pay for right? Performance as a measure of worth, or utility. You want to know what cars are available, which offer maximum utility per $, on the new car market....and youre willing to rule out MOST of the cars on the market, because they are front wheel drive, REGARDLESS of how they perform? Seems a bit shortsighted.
NOHOME wrote: I did not ask to be a jerk or start an argument.
But you did this time 
It doesn't have to be overpriced compared to something, he just thinks it's overpriced, as do I.
mtn wrote:bravenrace wrote: In reply to NOHOME: No, I don't think that was the question.Ok, but it is now: Bravenrace, what car would you pay 26k for?
I'll bite. I bought a 2002 C5 Z06 for $21k with roughly 50k miles.
If I had bought new? Let's say that I got a V6 Mustang with the sport package.
I'm with Nohome on this one. If it's FWD it doesn't exist for me any more. BTDT got the repair bills to prove it.
FWD isn't as fun to drive to me and they are much more costly in time &/or money to work on. Not just counting the tires, CV joints, but also the little things like alternators. If I'm going to have to put up with extreme awkwardness to work on them then make it a mid engined car.
Is there is another new rear drive car that compares?
If I'm buying used I'm looking at a completely different type of car.
If I could afford a new car, I would be cross shopping the FRS/ BRZ, V6 Mustang or Fiat 500 Abarth. Probably end up with the 500 though.
I dont know. My GSR swapped 92 civic hatch on konis/gcs was more fun than than the 06 sti I drove or the 01 corvette c5 FRC or the turbo four esprit. Actually the only car I've driven that beats it out was the 07 elise but I still preferred the civic because you could actually use it and they were very similar in terms of performance
FWD vs RWD, and what car you like or think is worth whatever is all a matter of opinion and taste. I've had plenty of both and they can both be very fun. My CRX is one of the most enjoyable cars I've ever owned, and so is my Mustang.
I didn't make this post to start a debate on the value of the toyobaru, I was actually complimenting it's autocross prowess!!! I don't know what I'd buy until I actually do it, but right now I'd say the V-6 Mustang is a much better value than the toyobaru. A few weeks ago I got to the point of talking price with the dealer, and could have gotten the Mustang for several thousand less. It's roomier, better looking by a long shot in my opinion, more powerful, faster and I "think" gets better freeway mileage (going on memory here, so I may be wrong), which is important to me.
I didn't buy the Mustang, so take that for what it's worth. It's just an example.
I don't care for the styling of the FRS, although I don't think it's ugly either. I've sat in one, but not driven it, but that doesn't matter, because I wouldn't buy one based on the styling, the fuel mileage and the price. I've also never liked any Toyota I've ever driven. Good cars, I just don't like them.
Anyway, like I said, my point was just to mention that I was impressed with their performance out of the box on the autocross course. I think I'd take one of many used cars for that price before considering a new FRS, and several new cars also, but while I like RWD, I'm not biased against FWD, so my market choices are much greater than someone who isn't considering FWD.
BTW, even though these cars were quick, one of the top guys in our club blew them all away in an HS 2003 Focus.
4cylndrfury wrote:NOHOME wrote: I did not ask to be a jerk or start an argument.... If it is front wheel drive, I don't really care how little it cost; that makes it a toaster in my mind and not worth much regardless of performance numbers.really? Id like to interject for a moment....youre asking about a car who's performance is on par with the twins. Thats what youre willing to pay for right? Performance as a measure of worth, or utility. You want to know what cars are available, which offer maximum utility per $, on the new car market....and youre willing to rule out MOST of the cars on the market, because they are front wheel drive, REGARDLESS of how they perform? Seems a bit shortsighted.
Nothing wrong with a bit of discourse on the intenet.
Serioulsy, FWD is a deal killer for me. It might be a generational thing since I was raised on MGs, 240Z and BMW 2002s. Not to mention the fleet of Ford, Chryco and GM behemoths that served as the family cars.
I would imagine that a signifcant portion of this board has never driven a RWD car and as such might have the same feelings about RWD as I do about FWD. Fair enough.
True story:
There once was a company called Lotus. Owned by a country called England.
It was rumored that this company was going to build a new Elan sportscar in the way that only Lotus can.
I saved all my dollars and salivated for the opportunity to buy that car. It was oft delayed as one would expect from a company called Lotus. But are all good things not worth waiting for?
Alas... a company called General Motors took over Lotus. Being much smarter than the folks at Lotus, the GM managment converted the project from RWD to FWD.
At that point I (and just about every other potential buyer) put all my money back in my pocket since the car became worthless as a FWD appliance. The Elan could no longer claim to be a "Sportscar" in the traditional sense. Was it a "good car" from an objective point of view? Hell yes, regarded by the press as the "Best FWD sportscar" in the world. But it needed that qualifier, much the same as being "The healthiest person in the ICU". (stole that from someone around here, thanks)GM could not give these things away. Even FWD fans won't buy a FWD sportscar. Its antithetical to the genre.
Lucky for me, Mazda came out with the Mata about the same time. You want to talk about dealer gouging.
EDIT:
As to styling, I have to agree it would fall under one of the things I am not wild about with the FRS. The term "Batmobile" seems to have stuck in my household when refering to this car. In my opinion, It is not a classic design that will age well. This car is far from perfect, and a month in, I have found a few things that annoy me.
NOHOME wrote: True story: ... I saved all my dollars and salivated for the opportunity to buy that car. It was oft delayed as one would expect from a company called Lotus. But are all good things not worth waiting for? Alas... a company called General Motors took over Lotus. Being much smarter than the folks at Lotus, the GM managment converted the project from RWD to FWD.
I am fairly certain this this bit isn't true, but I don't have anything to back this up - do you?
Nevermind, perhaps this it too much of a threadjack.
Let it be known that I doubt this and let's move on discussing the BRZ at the autocross.
Maybe I'll get one in a few dozen years when my kids are old enough to drive themselves and I have money again. So the real question is: Will the 2013 BRZ be a good used car value in 2036 as compared to a few others like it? What common failure mode are associated with this 24 year old car, and how hard is it to find parts for this arcane automobile? I see that BRZs are priced at 4 grand while I can get a 2012 Exige S for only 6k, which is the better value?
Wait, did Nohome just say a significant portion of the board population hasn't driven a RWD car? I thought this was the land of "The answer is Miata"
That said, a guy brought a new FR-S to our last autocross and I wasn't that impressed, but that may be tied to him never shutting up about the damn car and wanting to talk about the development process.
The real test of this car will be whether it can compete in STR. (the one that showed up with us certainly couldn't hold a candle to my Miata that's for sure)
DaveEstey wrote: Wait, did Nohome just say a significant portion of the board population hasn't driven a RWD car? I thought this was the land of "The answer is Miata" That said, a guy brought a new FR-S to our last autocross and I wasn't that impressed, but that may be tied to him never shutting up about the damn car and wanting to talk about the development process. The real test of this car will be whether it can compete in STR.
I don't think he meant literally.... just that many of us haven't really driven a RWD in anger.
I hadn't until last summer.
In reply to DaveEstey:
Its hard to say how good they are until we see one with a talented driver and some good tires. I've seen many very 'fast' cars come to our local events and get spanked by an ES miata
Also, it won't be in STR since its a coupe. I would imagine it'll end up in STX like the RX-8 did (both are C-stock cars originally).
With that being said, I like the cars, minus those ugly ass wheels.
I can understand why this car may not be someone's cup of tea, but I don't see how you can call it overpriced...unless you just think everything is overpriced.
I dont necessarily think that its "overpriced" for a new car with AC, a bunch of touchscreen whozamajobbers, MP7 players, toe warmers, tushy massagers, and a waffle iron.
But it is overpriced for a "sports coupe"...I understand why the car isnt offered with crank windows, AC delete, am/fm radio ONLY, manual locks, powerless seats etc, but that doesnt mean I like not having the option. I wouldnt pay more than $20k for a "fun" car, because Im gonna beat on it and wring it out, and all that extra stuff is just fluff Im gonna want to remove anyway...Id rather get a stripped down model for $19k, and spend the rest of tires and suspension.
Now, maybe Id pay that for a daily Driver. I probably would want some of those extraneous features in my DD, so I might consider paying over $20k for a DD. But since I live in the frigid north, I actually prefer FWD for DD duty, soI just wouldnt pick the FR-S.
So no, its not that its overpriced in general, its that its priced too high for my specific needs.
Otto Maddox wrote: I can understand why this car may not be someone's cup of tea, but I don't see how you can call it overpriced...unless you just think everything is overpriced.
It's overpriced due to the stealership tactics, but everything is overpriced as well. I remember 18 cent gasoline.
carguy123 wrote:Otto Maddox wrote: I can understand why this car may not be someone's cup of tea, but I don't see how you can call it overpriced...unless you just think everything is overpriced.It's overpriced due to the stealership tactics, but everything is overpriced as well. I remember 18 cent gasoline.
...and college tuition that could be paid with an hourly wage without loans
In reply to carguy123:
Wow. How much was a bottle of coke?
Otto Maddox wrote: I can understand why this car may not be someone's cup of tea, but I don't see how you can call it overpriced...unless you just think everything is overpriced.
Some are saying it's overpriced with the dealer gouging, which I understand. Others are saying it's overpriced at sticker, and considering most cars sell for under sticker, I can understand that as well.
Spoolpigeon wrote: In reply to DaveEstey: Its hard to say how good they are until we see one with a talented driver and some good tires. I've seen many very 'fast' cars come to our local events and get spanked by an ES miata
been a while since i looked at the rulebook, but i thought the reason the rx8 was in STX was because of the rotary displacement calculation (displacement x 2, meaning it was classed as a 2.6l piston engine) and the cutoff for STS is 2.0 liter N/A?
edti: nevermind, went and found the rules, i guess the rx8 is in stx due to being "sports car based" and so would the BRZ/FRS
In reply to Strizzo:
Not quite. The SCCA classes cars by asking a Magic 8 ball, so don't try to find logic in it. There are plenty of Coupes in Street Touring Roadster (911, 944, 968, etc).
The Toyobaru could end up in STS or STR depending.
carguy123 wrote: everything is overpriced as well. I remember 18 cent gasoline.
Sure, but what did you make that year? That's how inflation works... sadly incomes haven't been keeping pace with inflation but it's not as bad as it seems at first.
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