Racing has its own judicial system, with checks and balances similar to the rest of the world. There are laws that SCCA racers must abide by, and those can be found in a 700-page document called the General Competition Rules.
If you break the GCR’s laws or rules, the sanct…
Looking back, it really was just a slap on the wrist. I wonder why drivers are not penalized more for things like this because it keeps people from coming back.
In reply to RyanGreener :
I like to think of the system more to "reform" bad drivers rather than punish. Punishing without reform will lead to the same problem soon after. Most people don't learn their lesson. Putting somebody on probation and forcing them race regionally and cleanly hopefully creates some changes in that person's driving before they return to the Majors.
Penalty is not doled out based on the damage caused but rather the rules broken. In this case there were 4 rules in the GCR broken. Most of the time, these broken rules do not create such catastrophic results.
I think the real reason it strikes people as a wrist slap is they have caused you a major financial harm without feeling financial repercussions. I can see how making people at all monetarily liable is a huge can of worms, but the opening to that kind of hurt with no wrongdoing on their own part is what keeps many people from jumping into the water on wheel to wheel.
If you're comfortable sharing, has the other driver reached out to you at all? I can't imagine having it confirmed via upheld protest that I was at fault, and not making some sort of effort to make amends to the other parties racing effort.
Sports car racing was historically a 'gentleman's sport' and the GCR still reflects that to some degree. 'Back in the day' amateur race cars didn't cost what they do today. Entry fees were nominal. Tires lasted a long time.
I've been on the earth a half century, have worked hard and made some reasonably good financial decisions in my life but W2W racing is still almost elusively expensive. I got out after realizing I could only do 2-4 events per year if nothing bad happened but if I did wind up with a heavily damaged car that would probably be it for me. So I sold out while I had a car that worked vs one that was crashed.
I suppose I could do LeMons or something but it isn't the same as SCCA or NASA racing.
Going racing is a VERY serious decision. This series of articles should be required reading for anyone thinking about it. Don't misunderstand; racing was (briefly) a real adrenaline rush blast of fun for me but it has a lot of real expensive downsides to it that need adult consideration.
Apexcarver said:I think the real reason it strikes people as a wrist slap is they have caused you a major financial harm without feeling financial repercussions. I can see how making people at all monetarily liable is a huge can of worms, but the opening to that kind of hurt with no wrongdoing on their own part is what keeps many people from jumping into the water on wheel to wheel.
Racing in general is a huge financial risk. It is an unwise financial decision from the get go that spends a ton of money just to turn it into noise and smiles. Something about that risk captivates the hearts of all motorsports enthusiasts. If the sport assigned financial blame to parties in an incident, it would kill off club racing. Imagine having a mechanical failure on your car which in turn caused somebody else car damage or physical injury and now being responsible not only for your own vehicle but somebody else's as well.
bluej (Forum Supporter) said:If you're comfortable sharing, has the other driver reached out to you at all? I can't imagine having it confirmed via upheld protest that I was at fault, and not making some sort of effort to make amends to the other parties racing effort.
Negative.
He did show up to Runoffs at VIR to spectate, and I went to try to find him to have a chat. My search came up empty. He is certainly entitled to his choice of not acknowledging this situation and walking away.
ddavidv said:Sports car racing was historically a 'gentleman's sport' and the GCR still reflects that to some degree. 'Back in the day' amateur race cars didn't cost what they do today. Entry fees were nominal. Tires lasted a long time.
I've been on the earth a half century, have worked hard and made some reasonably good financial decisions in my life but W2W racing is still almost elusively expensive. I got out after realizing I could only do 2-4 events per year if nothing bad happened but if I did wind up with a heavily damaged car that would probably be it for me. So I sold out while I had a car that worked vs one that was crashed.
I suppose I could do LeMons or something but it isn't the same as SCCA or NASA racing.
Going racing is a VERY serious decision. This series of articles should be required reading for anyone thinking about it. Don't misunderstand; racing was (briefly) a real adrenaline rush blast of fun for me but it has a lot of real expensive downsides to it that need adult consideration.
Racing has gotten more expensive as the cars become more powerful, tires are more grippy, and the lap times drop. The risk remains the same but what is at stake has gone up. There is something about a sprint race in a competitive field that gets the blood flowing. Endurance races often bring in other factors like teamwork or making the car last, but the risk of losing a car is still there. I hope people can gain some insight into the realities of racing from the series.
Your experience is exactly why I always encourage drivers to name someone else on their entry as "the entrant". Your Entrant has the same authority to file paper on your behalf in case you're not available (or are not sure if you want to do it; he can be an objective "heavy" for you). Plus, the Entrant can be with you during the processes/discussions as a second set of eyes, ears, and opinions.
If you don't have any crew (or a Significant Other) to name then two drivers can get together and name each other as the Entrant.
I've seen this strategy used effectively many, many times.
GregA
I was taught early on that if you are not emotionally and financially willing to leave your car and or your body in the track dumpster, you should not be on a racetrack.
I thought I was, but discovered I was not. So I don't.
Pete
Christina, your a class act. So many people would have been on the internet vilifying the other driver. While I dislike competitors who think this is a contact sport, I'm also not a fan of internet lynching.
As for the SCCA's protest system; On one hand you could say more should be done but on the other how do you gauge intent? Drivers make mistakes, it's usually a misjudgment or getting in over your head. Regardless the system has worked pretty well for decades and I can honestly offer up a better way of doing it.
ddavidv good on you for being able to realize it wasn't worth it for you. I agree, would be racers should read this series. Even for notoriously frugal folks as myself who run cars costing all of 5K it would still take months to recover from that.
When I road raced motorcycles I could not afford to crash and being young didn't really have a plan for what to do if I did. It's nice to see this series, if you're planning to go wheel to wheel racing you do need a plan in case the car gets written off.
I appreciate you giving us the details about what you went through post-crash. Usually, we hear about the good results with a few challenges along the way. When something like this happens, people tend to keep it quiet/behind closed doors. This can be a real shock to someone's system, especially if you haven't been in a situation like this before. In your case, a lot of new things hit you all at once (no pun intended). Good on you for having Hugh file the protest, and also give you respect for not calling the driver out. What is done is done now, but I feel it's important for others coming up in the motorsport world to see that "other" side of things just so they know what they're getting into when they jump to W2W.
Us, as racing drivers all make mistakes. Mistakes are every lap we drive on a track in fact. Some mistakes cost much more than others - Good to know SCCA continues to have a well-standing reputation for being fair and diligent with handling situations like this. Hope you're staying safe during this time.
GregAmy said:Your experience is exactly why I always encourage drivers to name someone else on their entry as "the entrant". Your Entrant has the same authority to file paper on your behalf in case you're not available (or are not sure if you want to do it; he can be an objective "heavy" for you). Plus, the Entrant can be with you during the processes/discussions as a second set of eyes, ears, and opinions.
If you don't have any crew (or a Significant Other) to name then two drivers can get together and name each other as the Entrant.I've seen this strategy used effectively many, many times.
GregA
This is really great advice. Something I will always do for future races.
Thanks for sharing your experience and glad you survived almost intact even though the E46 was totaled. I had a much less dramatic encounter during an HPDE session when I was rear ended coming into a hairpin turn. What looked like minor damage came to $23K plus 6 months waiting for parts (it is a 911 so the $$$). The 6 months was a pain (May-Nov) but the other driver stood up and covered the cost for which I was grateful. Too bad the other driver for your event didn't feel the same but I agree with your view that the risk for damage to one's car belongs to every driver.
Maybe theses articles could be shown to those "wreckers or checkers" yo heads who we've all seen or dealt with. Perhaps if they were aware of the issues they might be a little more heads up.
What is the need to block someone on the straight, to the point where you are touching them or pushing them off the track??
Those people have no business taking the green flag for the rest of the season. I wish some of the Stewarts would hand down a huge penalty so people would take notice how dangerous it is to throw a big block on another car. Someone is going to get killed doing this, let alone wrecking cars.
I can't imagine not even apologizing for this incident. I had a spin and off in front of another driver that caused them to go off - no contact thankfully. I hunted them down and apologized and showed them the in car video of my mistake. We all had a good laugh and it was all good. I'm not sure you guys would be laughing about this one but a sincere apology would go a long way I'm sure.
I am mildly humored by the fact that you are still suited with one good shoe left on. People questioned why Ryan Newman walked out of the hospital bare-footed. As one that also got to wave to the crowd while climbing into the back of a track ambulance, I well understand that no one ever plans for and packs an extra street-clothes bag for the aftermath.
I have been in a few crashes. In one, I was brake-checked and the guy behind ran into me. Stewards were going to suspend him but I defended him and said there was no way for him to know or be able to stop in time to avoid me. I was surprised I was able to keep from hitting the guy in front. (and later that guy even admitted to brake-checking)
In another incident, car 1 spun, car 2 hit him blocking the track and I was car 3 out of 4 involved. Driver of car 1 volunteered to help pay for the damage (and did help with car 2's damage on an e46) but his spin was an accident and I have grown up in racing thinking that regardless of the details, I am responsible for my own damage.
In a third incident, I dive bombed a guy, made the pass and spun on corner exit causing him to hit me. I paid half of his damage as suggested unofficially by members of the sanctioning body.
Also there is a local race organizer here whose rule is that driver at fault must resolve things with the other driver before racing again. That can be anything the two drivers agree to from a handshake to full payment. And as long as both drivers are reasonable I don't see a problem.
But as was said earlier, if you can't afford a crash (financially or mentally) you probably shouldn't be racing.
In reply to glueguy (Forum Supporter) :
Straight from the side of the track into the ambulance. Never even made it back to paddock. After I was discharged from the ER, I was on crutches carrying my Hans and helmet out to the waiting room. Funny enough met a guy in the waiting area there who previously raced with SCCA at Lime Rock. Nice to talk race car stuff while waiting for my ride.
dculberson (Forum Supporter) said:I can't imagine not even apologizing for this incident. I had a spin and off in front of another driver that caused them to go off - no contact thankfully. I hunted them down and apologized and showed them the in car video of my mistake. We all had a good laugh and it was all good. I'm not sure you guys would be laughing about this one but a sincere apology would go a long way I'm sure.
I had a similar experience at a causal track day, driver error on my part, but man I felt bad about it and had to apologize, also was glad the other driver reassured me it was ok and sometimes things happen
Very early in my brief racing 'career' I was out in morning warm up and chasing another guy in my class. I did not know it but he was having handling problems and I wound up nose-to-tail with him going into a turn where he spun off to the inside. From the flagger's perspective it looked like I punted him. I was too close but look-at-me-I'm-a-race-car-driver affected my judgement. Anyway, I immediately found him in the paddock afterward about the same time the safety steward tracked us down. I honestly wasn't at all certain I hadn't bumped him but didn't feel anything.
The other driver quickly told us both that it was all him and that I hadn't touched him. Not a mark on the rub strip of my bumper which further quelled my fears that I was a contributor. We all shook hands and the other driver and I were paddock pals after that. Didn't matter to me that his car didn't hit anything; I would have been mortified had I actually punted someone...especially in practice!!
Red mist is a real thing.
Tough subject to objectively asses.
I never liked how SCCA handheld things with respect to the rules and crashes. I always thought there should be a teared system for dolling out penalties. If you break a rule and no other participant is affected (no contact etc) then you get X penalty. Contact but both carry on you get more of a penalty. Contact and the other car is out of the race things get even harsher. Contact and the drive of the other car is hurt you are penalized severely. All of this of course is dependent on fault being assigned.
There is one thing I do know and that is karma seems to play a big roll in racing. The person that was involved in your crash knows who they are and I am sure that those that need to know (other fellow drivers that race on track with them and you) know who that person is. When I was racing this sort of thing had a way of sorting its self out behind the scenes in a way that no rule book can dictate. We called it the drivers code of ethics. It was kind of like fight club and the first rule is you don't talk about it. It just kind of happens.
The flip side to this is that racing is a highly emotional thing to be involved in and knee jerk reactions to things like this would result in people being tared and feathered and then carried out on a rail. We can not have happening either and is why SCCA currently is the way it is with respect to these things. In the end no one wins in situations like this.
Again I am really glad you are ok. In the end that is most important.
I was at an open trackday event (non-SCCA or NASA) and me and another guy were in very different but very well matched cars, as was our driving experience. It was incredibly fun chasing each other where we both knew that if we made even the smallest error, it would cost us feet that would be hard to make up. Coming down the hill at Laguna Seca, he spun off and lightly hit the tire barrier. I felt bad that I'd be riding him, just to let him know I was there, but no contact. As soon as it was over I walked over and apologized, knowing full well that having a car filling your mirror is pressure. The good thing was that he was as excited as I was about running against someone so evenly matched and thought nothing of the incident. Had I not gone to talk to him, I'd never know how he felt about it.
Last place in the race and a 3-race probation. No apology.
You have a completely wrecked race car.
I see no justice.
In reply to NGTD :
I assumed the risk of racing when I built the car. Hobbling away from that crash did not feel great, but it is a reality of racing.
My world was turned upside down that day and all of our efforts were trashed. That car had been a dream for years and meant everything to me. Waiting for an apology was not going to bring it back. So I did the only logical thing a racer would do which was to get up, rebuild my world, and build a new racecar.
You'll need to log in to post.
