Attitudes about Stick Shifts

Literally the only thing I know of people failing for is parallel parking. Otherwise it's dirt simple.

Also lets be real here. American roads actually make sense, I've yet to come across as much bull E36 M3ery in the states as I have in Europe.

America: giant open wide roads going for the most part straight in a grid situation. Usually 2 lanes with travel in both directions at the minimum.

Europe: tiny roads with one ways everywhere. Who knows if you'll have a 2 lane road with travel in both directions turn into one so you and other drivers can play chicken with each other for travel rights. Roads are often laid out with more clutter than a plate of spaghetti.

Because of all the random silliness I think it's probably fair that the test is harder. Maybe not to the point that appears to be forced on you, but yes, a little tougher.

And now we're to the place where we must lament how easy it is to get a driver's license in this country, and how 98% of the drivers suck because of it. Shall I now mention that most of the stupid traffic laws and most of the accidents would go away if the test were only harder?

snailmont5oh wrote: And *now* we're to the place where we must lament how *easy* it is to get a driver's license in this country, and how 98% of the drivers suck because of it. Shall I now mention that most of the stupid traffic laws and most of the accidents would go away if the test were only harder?

Exactly!!

Be whole nuther world out there if so... a much better one.

fasted58 wrote:

snailmont5oh wrote: And *now* we're to the place where we must lament how *easy* it is to get a driver's license in this country, and how 98% of the drivers suck because of it. Shall I now mention that most of the stupid traffic laws and most of the accidents would go away if the test were only harder?

Exactly!! Be whole nuther world out there if so... a much better one.

What oil do you use?

In reply to Huckleberry:

sumthin' W sumthin'

do you warm the engine before changing the oil?

In reply to Wall-e:

That's pretty cool. I never met either of my grandpas, but I would have loved driving a dump truck as a kid. berkeley yeah. I care about that.

I don't understand the big deal about driving a stick shift. IMO, it doesn't make one a better driver. Good driving is about many more skills than just being able to drive a manual transmission.

My last DD was an automatic and my current one is (Gasp) a CVT. Driving either one of them is/was fun and the transmission is not really a factor.

Just a point of info: Before these two vehicles, I drove manual transmissions for more years (50) than many posting here have been alive.

In reply to snailmont5oh:

LOL if only that were true...

I made it back! I read page 2! Progress..

A large percentage of the "driving" they done in their lives was probably video games. Those rarely give the full experience of driving a manual.

I just want to throw out that i feel i learned a HUGE amount about driving from playing Gran Turismo 1 and reading all the definitions and technical info in its hundreds of text boxes, and even in its PAPER manual! That slid into the 'CD case' thing they had back then. If i remember correctly, studies have shown that video games improve response times, spatial thinking, and hand-eye coordination in general, which means that gamers tend to be better drivers. I'd much prefer a new driver be an old gamer, than no gamer at all!

To me, this argument is similar to say, metal-working.

We all love hand-formed metal like motorcycle tanks or hand-made fenders.

Almost a lost art. Not that shifting a manual is as complex but 1) having the input and control is cool for whatever inexplicable reason but 2) having no choice but to do it for hours on end day-in day-out might tarnish the magic.

snailmont5oh wrote: And *now* we're to the place where we must lament how *easy* it is to get a driver's license in this country, and how 98% of the drivers suck because of it. Shall I now mention that most of the stupid traffic laws and most of the accidents would go away if the test were only harder?

Unfortunately my experience driving all over North America (inc Canada and some l=time living in Mexico) and Europe says your conclusion is 100% wrong. I don't believe that the European test produces better drivers. A driving test is something that it's easy to prepare for once you have the basics down. No one is testing you after that and people laps into whatever habits they are going to. The only thing that makes Europeans 'better' drivers is their need to practice parking maneuvers every day that would give most people on this continent a heart attack, and that's just practice practice practice.

I was great at parking when I still lived there. Over here I have friends and family who literally think I'm a parking god as I can parallel park an Explore in spots they wouldn't put a Miata. But guess what? I’ve lost my touch. A few years ago back in the UK with a rental Astra (steaming pile of dog turd of a car) there was only one spot left in a tight car park. three attempts to back in (always always always back in spots. Signs saying 'Don't back into parking spaces' will be outlawed once I'm benevolent dictator to the universe) I saw another spot open up the next row over so I went there. Parked and went back for a ticket and someone had put a berkeleying Freelander in the space. Shamed. I'm out of practice.

Backing into spaces is definitely a skill that should be taught more. In CT, it's part of the driver's test (back into a space when getting back to the DMV).

In NY, it's basically unheard of. I've had people pull into a space 2 feet behind my rear bumper while I'm moving backwards to back into it (with my turn signal on) several times. The one time I asked someone what the hell was wrong with them, the response was "oh, I didn't know you were parking there. That's not how normal people park."

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

I've only heard stories (and seen some videos) of how people drive in different countries, so I'm okay with being 100% wrong, but couldn't you have let me keep my misconceptions of things like everyone going when the light turns green instead of waiting 3 seconds after the car in front of you goes, or an applicant needing to be able to catch a catastrophic skid without spinning to pass the test?

Now I has a sad.

Clearly, no one here has driven in latin america. That is a e36m3 show. I was back packing in the dominican republic with some friends. We rented a car to drive from the south to the north. I had one guy hit me at low speed. He gets out of his car looks at the tiny dent on my fender, shrug, and drive away. It's also common practice to ride 4 up on motorcycles. There aren't really rules of the road.

you make me want to never drive there ever

TurboFocus wrote: Literally the only thing I know of people failing for is parallel parking. Otherwise it's dirt simple. Also lets be real here. American roads actually make sense, I've yet to come across as much bull E36 M3ery in the states as I have in Europe. America: giant open wide roads going for the most part straight in a grid situation. Usually 2 lanes with travel in both directions at the minimum. Europe: tiny roads with one ways everywhere. Who knows if you'll have a 2 lane road with travel in both directions turn into one so you and other drivers can play chicken with each other for travel rights. Roads are often laid out with more clutter than a plate of spaghetti. Because of all the random silliness I think it's probably fair that the test is harder. Maybe not to the point that appears to be forced on you, but yes, a little tougher.

You don't spend a lot of time in the big cities do you? I can remember driving a 101 inch wide box truck down some skinny side street in Manhattan, I was literally skimming mirrors trying to get to the loading dock behind this theatre.

The big cities I have been in, Boston, NYC, Philly, Baltimore, Chicago, Houston, St. Louis, and a host of others including the great big mess that is DC all have narrow streets and one way streets, usually one and the same. I drove them all, and in the ones on the I95 corridor, I did them all in a 55foot long quad axle box truck with a ten speed trans.

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

snailmont5oh wrote: And *now* we're to the place where we must lament how *easy* it is to get a driver's license in this country, and how 98% of the drivers suck because of it. Shall I now mention that most of the stupid traffic laws and most of the accidents would go away if the test were only harder?

Unfortunately my experience driving all over North America (inc Canada and some l=time living in Mexico) and Europe says your conclusion is 100% wrong. I don't believe that the European test produces better drivers. A driving test is something that it's easy to prepare for once you have the basics down. No one is testing you after that and people laps into whatever habits they are going to. The only thing that makes Europeans 'better' drivers is their need to practice parking maneuvers every day that would give most people on this continent a heart attack, and that's just practice practice practice. I was great at parking when I still lived there. Over here I have friends and family who literally think I'm a parking god as I can parallel park an Explore in spots they wouldn't put a Miata. But guess what? I’ve lost my touch. A few years ago back in the UK with a rental Astra (steaming pile of dog turd of a car) there was only one spot left in a tight car park. three attempts to back in (always always always back in spots. Signs saying 'Don't back into parking spaces' will be outlawed once I'm benevolent dictator to the universe) I saw another spot open up the next row over so I went there. Parked and went back for a ticket and someone had put a berkeleying Freelander in the space. Shamed. I'm out of practice.

Obviously it was a tow truck that put the Freelander there. Lord knows it couldn't have possibly done it under its own power

But seriously, I think I've found our next topic of undue contention: The self-important shiny happy people that insist on backing into parking spots.

WHY?!?! Are you robbing a bank or something that you need to have a clean getaway? The rest of us would like to find a spot as well, yet we're stacked up 5 cars deep waiting for you to back your crew cab, long bed dually just so. Logically, it's just harder to back a car into a tight window between two other vehicles than into an open aisle way. Why choose to make parking needlessly difficult?

Furious_E wrote: But seriously, I think I've found our next topic of undue contention: The self-important shiny happy people that insist on backing into parking spots. WHY?!?! Are you robbing a bank or something that you need to have a clean getaway? The rest of us would like to find a spot as well, yet we're stacked up 5 cars deep waiting for you to back your crew cab, long bed dually just so. Logically, it's just harder to back a car into a tight window between two other vehicles than into an open aisle way. Why choose to make parking needlessly difficult?

I back in because then I can pull out without some asshat speeding up the aisle and laying on their horns when almost back into them when they were nowhere near me 2 seconds before

racerdave600 wrote: So I was at a dealer the other day and saw two kids wandering around the lot. One basically looks inside a Miata and says its sorta cool but has old people stuff in it. He was referring to the manual transmission. Evidently manuals are very uncool by the younger generation. Turns out they view them about the same way we would a manual crank car (I asked a few other teenage family members and they all agreed). It's official, I'm old with old people "stuff."

I'm officially past old people (age 68.5) Yes, I have a hand crank start automobile in the Garage (MGTD) with a manual transmission. I taught my daughter how to drive a manual transmission and then gave her a new car with a Manual gearbox to drive through her teen years , college, and adulthood. In fact she still drives it daily. With nearly 230,000 miles on it that Saturn still has it's original clutch.

My point is few people really learn how to drive well and even fewer drive a manual gearbox well enough that the clutch will last anywhere near as long. Especially in todays rush hour traffic.

Since most people live in cities with attending road congestion and traffic it simply makes sense to use automatics. Heck Formula one race cars now use automatics. Oh the rules require drivers to "shift" by pushing a button on the steering wheel but in all other respects it's an automatic..

In reply to Furious_E:

Backing into a space is safe than backing out of one. You are less likely to hit or be hit by someone in the space rather than someone driving done the aisle not paying attention.

Wall-e wrote: In reply to Furious_E: Backing into a space is safe than backing out of one. You are less likely to hit or be hit by someone in the space rather than someone driving down the aisle not paying attention.

Hallelujah and amen!

I'm totally in that habit even for my own driveway. It's a lot safer to back in to the driveway than to reverse on to the street. And with kids around, there is a much higher possibility that one could get into the car and start backing out of the driveway without seeing a kid or some kidstuff in the driveway versus approaching the driveway from the street and backing in.

The other side to that, though, is that it doesn't take me much longer to back in to my space than it takes the average joe to pull in front-ways as long as the guy behind me in the garage/parking lot/street isn't right on my bumper. But that's a following distance problem which is a whole nother can of worms!

mad_machine wrote: You don't spend a lot of time in the big cities do you? I can remember driving a 101 inch wide box truck down some skinny side street in Manhattan, I was literally skimming mirrors trying to get to the loading dock behind this theatre. The big cities I have been in, Boston, NYC, Philly, Baltimore, Chicago, Houston, St. Louis, and a host of others including the great big mess that is DC all have narrow streets and one way streets, usually one and the same. I drove them all, and in the ones on the I95 corridor, I did them all in a 55foot long quad axle box truck with a ten speed trans.

I'm not trying to get into a wiener swinging competition with you but rather prove a point. Europeans are better drivers because they have a more difficult environment to drive in.

Now I'm glad you have issues driving a cargo truck in a big city. I'd assume most major cities like that have those issues, Brussels has them. But so do smaller towns, literally a tenth the size of Brussels. Or towns even smaller than the ones I just mentioned..

With an e46 I've shared a similar experiences in places much much smaller than anywhere you've listed, sure I wasn't skimming mirrors but I couldn't open my door and get out like a normal human being, I'd have to do the whole shimmy and wiggle deal to get out if I chose to. A fat guy certainly couldn't leave his car in some of the smaller roads with buildings on either side.

Now I don't know about Boston or Chicago roads but I don't think it's normal in the states to be driving along a normal two way road when out of no where you're slamming on the brakes because around the bend is a spot where they decided it's a good idea to make a one lane underpass. One side must stop while the other goes underneath a bridge. No construction or signs, that's normal life for those people. That exact problem has happened twice in the past six months in different spots, in a small town and medium sized town. There are a lot of random one car pass bends in the region I'm in, for one turn only during that turn, only one car can pass.

Every town I've been to is laid out like spaghetti, much like Boston is. With the exception of those east coast cities and inner portion of big cities. US uses a grid pattern and much bigger roads.

In reply to Wall-e:

I figured that, just trying to poke fun at the indignant nature of some of these debates .

I'll usually just find a spot towards the back of the lot where I can pull straight through - best of both worlds and I don't mind walking a little further (often quicker than searching for a spot anyways.)

I read the first post of this thread out loud to my 18 yo. He laughed, and said "No, no, no! My generation is split down the middle. There's the stupid kids who can only drive an auto, and then there's the cool kids".

That's my boy.

Furious_E wrote: In reply to Wall-e: I figured that, just trying to poke fun at the indignant nature of some of these debates . I'll usually just find a spot towards the back of the lot where I can pull straight through - best of both worlds and I don't mind walking a little further (often quicker than searching for a spot anyways.)

The company I work for requires employees in company vehicles to pull through and back in no pull through is available. Employees in personal vehicles are encouraged to do the same. It's what I do all of the time now. FYI, the number of backing accidents in company vehicles went down considerably after that policy went into effect. You have your greatest awareness of surroundings went arriving or something like that.