Yeah, about the thumbs down on SxS... and meanwhile, in Europe, it's a thing. Granted that I may be confusing the exact vehicles, but they look very similar to what's successfully being run over there, and they aren't tipping over. Very well produced video on hillclimbs, and there are several SxS-type cars in the mix. Not really off-topic because if they run successfully over there, why can't they run autocross here?
I browsed the video some and didn't see any SxS but did see several crosskart type things. Not remotely the same vehicle (by basic definition even...can't be a side by side if there's only one seat). They're basically the "SxS designed and built by adults for the specific purpose of racing" that I referenced and would be great if they existed here. Well, they do exist here but at 2-5x the cost of the most expensive SxS.
From what little I have seen of crosskarts, they seem pretty stable but keep a few spare chains per event. At the table smooth RXNC in 2021 someone brought a couple to rent out, if there hadn't been a dirtbike event across the way to get spare parts from, neither would have finished the weekend. And technically neither one did even with spare parts.
I am curious why there isn't a business case for a crosskart that cost $15-25K that is big enough for 6'6" americans (cough im fat cough). They all cost $100K and are setup for European racing drivers who blow away in a light breeze. Are they that expensive to build? I can have fun with 25hp instead of 200hp if I can fit in the vehicle.
On a somewhat related note, what is stopping some old formula car from being retrofitted with longer travel suspension? There are a ton of old Formula Vees and Formula Fords floating around. Is it impossible or just not worth it?
In reply to ojannen :
Formula Vees will off road just fine as they are; there's a surprising amount of suspension travel. Basically they'd suffice for rallycross. Vees tend to be built like tanks, an early car (non zero roll suspension) could be easily modified.
Formula Fords simply aren't that beefy.
In reply to ojannen :
I'm not sure either. Seems something that is F500ish with real suspension could be done in that range and be used for Autox and W2W.
The rush SR is close but it looks like the cost has grown from $27k to $40k
I missed that this conversation veered to SXSs in rallyx for a bit. I'll add my quick 2 cents - a stock SXS is fairly dangerous in rallyx and just asking for a rollover, but a properly set up SxS, lowered, wider track, and fat sway bars is a very potent weapon. I've done a lot of rallyx in a wide variety of vehicles. My YXZ is the most fun and fastest one I've experienced or seen in action. I've heard rumors they might be allowed at Nationals this year and I'm strongly considering it, because I have a feeling the class won't be around long.
A crosskart showed up at a rallyx at the Firm a couple of years ago. I beat him by a large margin. As far as I know, they're all 2wd and have far less traction than my SxS. A 4wd crosskart would be rad, but I don't believe I've ever seen one.
Have we discussed sites and event insurance? Those seem to be the two biggest issues facing autocrossing today.
In reply to David S. Wallens :
Not really, but since KK insures nearly all grassroot motorsports in America you'd think they'd have a reasonable policy rate/plan. 10 million seems to the standard coverage rate as well.
David S. Wallens said:Have we discussed sites and event insurance? Those seem to be the two biggest issues facing autocrossing today.
Absolutely.
I have one feasible, affordable venue. It's not great, but it's in an excellent location. If I lose it, my program is dead.
Plus my insurance costs came close to doubling this year, because K&K had to switch to a different carrier (in our area, anyway).
We sell out nearly every event (100 car cap), so the demand is there. But the infrastructure just isn't very robust at all.
In reply to Duke :
And your situation seems common: plenty of customers but, like you said, issues regarding infrastructure.
I feel this thread. Last couple events I've been to have been pretty meh. I realized at an event last weekend that I just wasn't having fun autocrossing anymore, even during the driving portion. I've just kind of gotten to the point that if I'm not turning in really good times then I'm just getting frustrated. And add this point it's really hard for me to get faster without way more seat time and way more money spent. I'm at the point in my life right now where spending an entire day standing around just isn't that appealing any more.
And Western NY Scca was informed they can't use Orchard Park in 2024 and the foreseeable future. Yet another down.
camopaint0707 said:And Western NY Scca was informed they can't use Orchard Park in 2024 and the foreseeable future. Yet another down.
Western NY is better off than Southern. Southern has always been a small region and they lost all four venues in one fell swoop this year. Watkins Glen International booted Southern and Glen Regions, because they freshly paved the tiny little media parking lot they allotted them and don't want tire tracks on it. At a racetrack. Yeah. Then Binghamton Airport got a new airline operating out of there and wanted their long-term parking lot back. Then Binghamton University told them that they had no issue with SNY SCCA, but a nearby property owner made a noise complaint, and so they had to boot them. And Tioga Downs told them that they are doing construction, and the parking lot that they lent SNY is completely full of construction materials and supplies. Us in the CNY region have been trying to prop up the Southern and Glen regions for the past couple years, by inviting them to our events or trying to go down to their events to bump up attendance.
In reply to NickD :
damn, that was all extremely depressing
The reality is that autocross people are an extremely small group with an interest that 99.9% of society doesn't care about, yet requiring cooperation by these same people. You count on a group or individual to be a good sport and loan/rent some land out, but at the same time, they may well see your activity as a liability and/or a noise problem. What's the upside for them? The reality is that priorities for 99.9% of people are family, activities, and shopping, and cars are simply appliances. I recently saw a statistic that only about 6% of cars manufactured today are sports cars, and it's only getting smaller.
I write this with a strong sense of irony, having built two hard-core sports cars, sold both, sold our Jag, and bought a small SUV. Tracks vanishing, or too far away, once affordable sports cars being so expensive to buy and repair, and bad traffic all helped in this decision. I only half-way joked that "I gave up a babe-mobile for a baby mobile", but at least I made it to my 60's before doing so!
Last three autocrosses I registered for were canceled a couple of days before each event. I love autocross, but to be honest, the proliferation of track-based Time Trials makes autocross make less business sense than ever before.
Tracks are businesses dedicated to motorsports. Yes, it costs more to run at a TT than an autocross...maybe. I mean, to be honest, it seems to me a bit of a wash. Yes, the entry fees are higher, but you're on a real track, with the services that a track entails, you will typically get 2-4x the amount of on-track time, and perhaps more importantly...you don't have to stand out baking in the sun on a hot summer day working the event, unless you want to.
I am at a point in my life with my biggest luxury in life is time. If I spend an afternoon baking in the sun, I will spend the entirety of the next day recovering. So, for my 6-minutes of driving time, I get to spend 36hours recuperating. Doesn't seem like a great balance. When I was 20-25 it was great. Now? Not so much.
In reply to DocRob :
What about roll cage/roll bar requirements? Part of the appeal of autocross is the ability to slap numbers on ye olde commuter and go dodge cones, instead of having to have a dedicated car.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:In reply to DocRob :
What about roll cage/roll bar requirements? Part of the appeal of autocross is the ability to slap numbers on ye olde commuter and go dodge cones, instead of having to have a dedicated car.
Most track groups are happy to take coupes without roll bars. Even many modern convertibles are allowed to run with factory rollover protection.
Miatas need aftermarket bars.
Also, I dunno what day you're going to that only gives you "2-4x as much on track time". The most I ever got at an autox was 9 minutes (4 60 second runs and 5 fun runs), and I don't think I've ever been to a track day that allotted me less than 80.
Track days for me are almost 2 hours of track time, vs the under 8 minutes of driving time at an auto-x. Same safety requirements for the two, have a proper helmet. No need for roll bar/cage. Yes, it's more money but it's also dramatically more track time and as pointed out, not standing out in the sun all day working. Time away from home is about the same for me, venues are basically the same distance away. I like auto-x to get familiar with the handling of a new car, but after that I'm at the track. The time driving vs time spent quotient for auto-x doesn't make sense to me.
More money when expanded down to the extra cost of consumables and maintaining stuff that breaks at a higher rate is why I don't track as often. Yeah things break at autocross, but I really started breaking stuff on my car after a few track days, stuff that I never saw break after years of autocross.
Additionally, the increased speeds and risk of incidents occurring are also factored in my choice to limit track days.
I get the seat time argument b/c you can say the same thing about drag racing too.
I also like driving sub 200hp cars and being on track with everything 300-500hp doesn't sound like fun.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:In reply to DocRob :
What about roll cage/roll bar requirements? Part of the appeal of autocross is the ability to slap numbers on ye olde commuter and go dodge cones, instead of having to have a dedicated car.
There is value in this point, in the sense that not everything I've seen run at an autocross would be allowed to run in a Time Trial format. In general, those same cars also seem to be the type of vehicle that would be unsafe at higher speeds though.
Safety is one factor. The other, and to my mind the most important, thing you get from autocross is - controlling your commuter car at speeds and sometimes direction changes that resemble those you experience on the street.
If you're like me and have lived in snowplow country the last decade - potholes are a way of life. Dodging potholes and slaloming cones have a lot more in common than dodging potholes and flinging a car out of a off-camber corner on a glass smooth track.
The value in autocross, to me, is how much closer it is to real world driving. The value of track time is how far away it is from real world driving.
Logistical challenges aside, it seems to me that a big challenge to autocross in years to come is that the majority of new cars being sold are crossovers. Vehicles not suitable or safe to run in autocross.
This has pretty profound implications for everyone who plays in the "cheap end" of the motorsports pool, where our available vehicle choices will become more and more limited over the next 10-15 years.
Personally, I am building a multi-use street car that can do some time trials and track days. If I seriously take up any racing efforts in the near(er) future they will be motorcycle related, due to lower overall costs and greater availability of suitable base vehicles.
And the SCCA just lost Toledo, OH. My local lot also had 100 state department fleet vehicles dumped on it without warning or notice with an event in 3 days. This is fun.
camopaint0707 said:And the SCCA just lost Toledo, OH.
*temporarily*, as has happened a few times in the past.
DocRob said:Tracks are businesses dedicated to motorsports. Yes, it costs more to run at a TT than an autocross...maybe. I mean, to be honest, it seems to me a bit of a wash. Yes, the entry fees are higher, but you're on a real track, with the services that a track entails, you will typically get 2-4x the amount of on-track time, and perhaps more importantly...you don't have to stand out baking in the sun on a hot summer day working the event, unless you want to.
I used to make this argument until I looked at how much I spent on track days last year, and how much I need to spend this year to get out at least once.
Each track day is ~$500 in entry costs, consumables (gas, mostly), and track insurance. In the 6 track days I've been to, my tires are toasted, and my brake calipers needed rebuild/replacement (I opted for a BBK replacement).
Cost over year:
6x500 = $3000 in entry costs/gas/track insurance
BBK = $1200 (although I could've just done an OEM replacement or rebuild for cheaper, I thought I'd track more so I got the BBK)
Cost to get started this year:
new tires ~ $1500 mounted and balanced
I ended up buying a mountain bike instead, and go to trails for free, to get a similar adrenaline rush. I don't autocross for the same reasons as you, I get ~10 minutes of driving time maximum, and my car just doesn't like autocross.
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