Can we start a separate topic for just EFI

Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to frenchyd :

There are 2 easy buttons, one is to fit a GM TBI setup, then go Holley as it'll work with the TBI as a starting point for the conversion.

 

Or..

 

 

The baller mobeck setup

 

OBD2 is simply not needed in either case and merely overcomplicates things. 

The Baller Mobeck system does not have any input for flex fuel. Nor is it programmed to  deal with boost.  
 In other words it's not as capable as the Megasquirt. 
  He does have it well tuned and I can understand why it's so expensive. 

In reply to frenchyd :

OBDII only exists in the OEM production world.  That's it.  The only way you are going to get OBDII on your engine is to adapt a production set up from post 1996.   And even then, the system will certainly have errors, since you will most certainly miss some key parts.

frenchyd said:

In reply to Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :

so what if I connect something wrong?  Why not have something that will inform me the Hall effect sensor is connected wrong?  
      

Connect it properly, it will work. Connect it improperly, it won't. This sort of issue only really happens on first start. Pretty simple to troubleshoot using the tools available in Tunerstudio, there is a tooth/trigger/composite logger for the cam/crank signals, and all the other sensors will read realtime data that you can see right on the dash. You don't need error codes if you can see what the ecu is reading in realtime, and via logging (if so equipped).

OBD2 type error detection is not necessary or helpful really once you are on standalone (and much of what it is monitoring isn't present/relevant)

frenchyd said:

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to frenchyd :

You were asking about EFI.  I was pointing you to Holley carb mount EFI units.

I was not recommending any carburetors......   I keep suggesting you need to communicate more clearly.  I'm not joking.  You once made a post about adjusting a seat for racing that was just a long story on how Dale E spent all his time adjusting his seat.....  

This is really why you get a lot of grief here.  Your $2000 painting post is another example.  I really want to enjoy and read about your Jaguar posts, but this circular unfocused communication style really gets in the way.  Good luck.
 

 

You are aware that manifold won't fit under the hood of the Jaguar?   That the Holley system does not have any input for boost or Flex fuel?  Or OBD2?  

Pretty sure you focused on the wrong part of his post there.

Which, come to think of it, is a pretty good example of his post.

In reply to Mr_Asa :

My original question was about getting OBD2 .  The Holley system simply won't work on a Jaguar for the reasons I gave. 
      
 Paul VR 6 explained it in a way I understood.  He made the connection.  The light bulb turned on.  
 Everyone is right. I don't need OBD2. 
 Plugging in a lap top is about the same time, effort as plugging a reader into OBD2 port.   Both provide the same 

I have no input of any value in regards to the Jaaaaag, but I too would love to see a dedicated EFI section on here. 

With the shear amount of knowledge and skill available here, I imagine I would spend hours every day just absorbing as much information as possible. 

frenchyd said:

In reply to Mr_Asa :

My original question was about getting OBD2 .  The Holley system simply won't work on a Jaguar for the reasons I gave. 

That question has been answered- it OBDII does not exist on any retrofit EFI systems.  It only exists on post 1996 OEM systems.

Seems like you should be trying to find a carb answer instead of going EFI.  You clearly know more about them than EFI.

frenchyd said:

In reply to z31maniac :

I'm seeing Megasquirt connected to the V12 engine.  But I've never seen Holley incorporated on a Jaguar V12. 
 I know the Lucas system doesn't have OBD2. But that's such a helpful system for diagnosing problems I'm trying to find a way to incorporate it.  
 I am going to switch all the sensors to GM  with the exception of the Hall crank position sensor in the distributor*.  Since  it's easy to do.  Plus junkyard shopping I should be able to pick up spares cheap enough.  
   But without OBD2 it's just repetitive swapping until I find the problem.  
      The one thing I really understand about racing is if you have spares, tools,  and know how to replace them  they never fail. 
Sunday  Gospel  according to Frenchy. 
After Ford bought Jaguar they eliminated the distributor and switched to a coil on plug system using a crank trigger.  
    They are rare compared to distributor fired systems  but if that gets me the ability to use a OBD2 system. I can start hunting. 

I believe Jaguar sold some cars with a V12 in 1996. It should have OBD2. If you want OBD2, I'd just grab everything (sensors, wiring, ECU) from that vehicle and start there. 

In reply to alfadriver :

I'm slowly getting it.  I want to use EFI  because I want to turbo it.  I've already figured out how to use carbs. but to my knowledge they really don't work well with turbo's. 
 

Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to z31maniac :

I'm seeing Megasquirt connected to the V12 engine.  But I've never seen Holley incorporated on a Jaguar V12. 
 I know the Lucas system doesn't have OBD2. But that's such a helpful system for diagnosing problems I'm trying to find a way to incorporate it.  
 I am going to switch all the sensors to GM  with the exception of the Hall crank position sensor in the distributor*.  Since  it's easy to do.  Plus junkyard shopping I should be able to pick up spares cheap enough.  
   But without OBD2 it's just repetitive swapping until I find the problem.  
      The one thing I really understand about racing is if you have spares, tools,  and know how to replace them  they never fail. 
Sunday  Gospel  according to Frenchy. 
After Ford bought Jaguar they eliminated the distributor and switched to a coil on plug system using a crank trigger.  
    They are rare compared to distributor fired systems  but if that gets me the ability to use a OBD2 system. I can start hunting. 

I believe Jaguar sold some cars with a V12 in 1996. It should have OBD2. If you want OBD2, I'd just grab everything (sensors, wiring, ECU) from that vehicle and start there. 

Thank you, I'm aware of that. But 1996 ( and 3 in 1997)  V12's are a tiny amount a few hundred at best if my memory is correct. 1/2 of which didn't come to America. 
        Turns out I was wrong, •••• again.   I don't need OBD2. 
 It was explained in a way the the light bulb turned on a few posts ago and now that's disappeared. 
      I am ever so grateful   and I wanted to express my gratitude  but it's gone!   
 Edit:  

 The light bulb moment came from Paul VR6. 
  Thank you!   

birdmayne said:

I have no input of any value in regards to the Jaaaaag, but I too would love to see a dedicated EFI section on here. 

With the shear amount of knowledge and skill available here, I imagine I would spend hours every day just absorbing as much information as possible. 

 

Well said.  I'm finding a lot of people with valid information explain it in a way that doesn't make sense to me.  Then someone comes along and the light bulb goes on.  

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :

so what if I connect something wrong?  Why not have something that will inform me the Hall effect sensor is connected wrong?  
      

Connect it properly, it will work. Connect it improperly, it won't. This sort of issue only really happens on first start. Pretty simple to troubleshoot using the tools available in Tunerstudio, there is a tooth/trigger/composite logger for the cam/crank signals, and all the other sensors will read realtime data that you can see right on the dash. You don't need error codes if you can see what the ecu is reading in realtime, and via logging (if so equipped).

OBD2 type error detection is not necessary or helpful really once you are on standalone (and much of what it is monitoring isn't present/relevant)

Thank you Paul VR 6. 
That  was a light bulb moment.   
    If a sensor doesn't read fuel pressure  then I know why it's not running  and I only have a few things to check. 
 Hooking up a laptop is about the same time/ effort as plugging in a reader .  
       Brilliant. Again,  thank you. 
     

Just build it, wire it up & hookup a simulator to test all your sensors.  Then hook up the MS ecu board with a basic best guess tune & hit the key.
Don't do the analysis to paralysis. Just dive in & do it.  
Can you run the timing without ecu control, just as a starting point? That's what I had to do with my first one. I could not get the MS to control the original carb based dizzy. The motor was a D15b2 so it was a carb. Had lots of Honda f.I. parts so built an MS. Spent many hours trying to get timing to work but couldn't get it. 
It ran really well when the tuning was finally done. 
With the laptop you will have all the displays you will need. Also building it & tuning it, you will know exactly what the issues are because you built it. 
I have a simulator somewhere that I'll give you. 
With all the C.O.P. parts available now, I would go with a distributor-less system. 
I think a bigger issue you will have is drive time on the street. That's where all my tuning was. Hook up the laptop, drive to town, son enjoyed watching the gauges. Stop at various places, make adjustments. 
If you're tuning a 500hp race car, the street tuning will be tricky. 
 

In reply to mdshaw :

Thank you!   The ignition system is a stand alone system.  The only input it has is the Hall effect sensor on the back of the distributor rotor. 
    Later after Ford bought Jaguar Ford got rid of the distributor  and went to crank fired  coil on plug system with a waste fire.    The Ford coils are right in the valley and not only do they mess up the appearance of the engine.  I understand they are heat sensitive.  I'll see if I can find a nice appearing, high output ,coil on wire. 
   thank you very much for your offer of your simulator.   I'll be glad to pay for shipping at least. 
    Oops!  an unmuffled race car with no license plate. Nope. Gonna tune on a chassis dyno. 
 A friend of mine still has one of the trailers I built.  I'm sure he'll lend it to me.   Plus we'll probably use it to tow to the Challenge.  I won't be there but my partners probably can.  
 

frenchyd said:

Thank you Paul VR 6. 
That  was a light bulb moment.   
    If a sensor doesn't read fuel pressure  then I know why it's not running  and I only have a few things to check. 
 Hooking up a laptop is about the same time/ effort as plugging in a reader .  
       Brilliant. Again,  thank you. 
     

I try. Feel free to call I'll give you one hour of my wonderful insights for free. 

At least you can start it at home & at least get it basically running before heading to the dyno.  Hopefully a friend has a dyno or you get it cheap. Or you have help tuning it. That can be an expensive endeavor, for me anyway. It took me days to tune mine. 
Hopefully you live in a nice HOA & can excite the elderly HOA monitors. 
I found the Stimulator. 

In reply to mdshaw :

With race cars everything I read says that the hard part is to get them running smoothly at low speed.  Tuning for power is supposed to be much easier.  
 I guess we'll see. 
 I'm PM you later. 

Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:

You can diagnose things via tunerstudio, data logging and a wideband if running MS or speedino without the need for OBD2 as well. In fact about the only thing you wouldn't be able to diagnose with such tools would be the sensors that fail as part of the OBD2 system that aren't needed or installed on a non OBD2 system. 

 

Or you could toss a 350 into the Jag, Holley makes an EFI setup for the 350...

I'm sorry  I just failed to understand what you were saying.  You were right but I just failed to grasp it. 

alfadriver said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to Mr_Asa :

My original question was about getting OBD2 .  The Holley system simply won't work on a Jaguar for the reasons I gave. 

That question has been answered- it OBDII does not exist on any retrofit EFI systems.  It only exists on post 1996 OEM systems.

Seems like you should be trying to find a carb answer instead of going EFI.  You clearly know more about them than EFI.

Please read a little further. I just failed to understand what you and others were saying.  I fundamentally misunderstood how EFI worked. 
    I really was asking the wrong question but I just didn't know how to ask the right one. 
   Thankfully Paul VR6 patiently answered me again and gave me a light bulb moment. 

Think back a few minutes, when you started tuning with carbs did you understand every change you made? How every interaction affected the motors fueling? I sure didn't. Nor was I an efi expert when I did my first engine swap to go efi. I sure as heck wasn't when I built a turbo ls on microsquirt. Every time you work on a project like this you will learn a little more. 
 

You need to stop looking at the pool water and Jump! 

1SlowVW said:

You need to stop looking at the pool water and Jump! 

I don't disagree with this, there is a lot to be learned by "doing" a little bit. Even a cheap MS ecu and a stim goes a long way in understanding what does what, making realtime changes in the laptop, etc.

This is just me figuring out the next step.  I had no idea how long it would take for me to figure EFI out.  Remember I started  researching around 1978.  I figured I had a big head start  since I knew how engines worked and had built and used mechanical Fuel injection ( Hilborn, Corvette, and Jaguar ). 
     Then Group 44 showed up with Webers after using SU's on their XKE. 
I was able to figure out how to kludge the early Bosch EFI to work  with a pair of T2's  ( with the help of another person)   
   So how hard could it be?   
        At least now I can go ahead , pick up the GM sensors I'll need and lay out the system.  I'm planning on making a back up board that will accept a quick connect  in case there is ever a problem.  That's my method of race prep. If I have the knowledge, tools and parts ready to go in. It will never give me trouble. 
it's worked so far for over 50 years. 
Don't forget I'm building the car as we speak. 

Let me see what I have knocking around here for boards I may have some otherwise worthless junk I can throw a MS1 processor together with a stim to get you bench ready to learn. LMK if that would be interesting for you.

In general on sensors these days, almost anything is usable. GM is an easy go to, but I've used Ford, Bosch/Vag and a host of other random and aftermarket ones all with good results. 

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:

Let me see what I have knocking around here for boards I may have some otherwise worthless junk I can throw a MS1 processor together with a stim to get you bench ready to learn. LMK if that would be interesting for you.

In general on sensors these days, almost anything is usable. GM is an easy go to, but I've used Ford, Bosch/Vag and a host of other random and aftermarket ones all with good results. 

I'll just swing by the local pick apart and grab a bunch of stuff and some good waterproof connectors. 
   I already have a new Megasquirt. It came with the car.  
     I am wondering that with air intakes on both sides of the engine if the Megasquirt has access for both or I need to go with Megasquirt Gold.  I guess I'll find out when  I order the stuff I need from DIY Tuner.  

What do you mean by access for both? Do you plan on using two throttle bodies and totally separate intakes or is there a crossover/balancing tube?

If you have a new ms you just need a stim and get that thing plugged in and playing with the software. It simulates all sensor and you can see directly on the laptop what they all do and how it may effect the fueling/timing in real time.