Challenge to the 2009 Challengers

plance1 wrote: I would exempt the cost of safety equipment however much like Lemons.

Lemons is a completely different kettle of fish. I know, I've run it too. It's wheel to wheel racing (hence the safety equipment rule) and the whole purpose of the thing is to run the crappiest car you can for 24, er, 16 hours and have a low pressure blast while doing so. It's also one of those things where some people who show up just don't 'get it'; that's why there's People's Curse.

There was some discussion of the safety equipment thing a while back, specifically roll cages. Here's the deal: a roll cage can also be a chassis stiffening device which makes it a performance enhancement thus it counts toward the budget. Additionally the rules state that the really fast drag cars MUST have a cage. That puts the budget squeeze on guys like Andy Nelson who ALWAYS shows up with something that blisters the 1/4 mile, he has to be able to go faster on less money once the cage comes into play.

Me, I showed up in '06 to have a good time (which I did!) and to put my skillz up against people of like minds to see how I stacked up. I saw ingenuity and fabrication like I had never seen before, these guys made me look like a rank amateur (which I am). I was super pleased with a top 10 finish in this bunch. I want to do it again! I was a one man show last time, but now I have a bud here in town who appears to be thoroughly roped into us building a car. So next time it won't be quite so hard or take so long.

First you drag me in to spending countless priceless personal hours building a crappy T-bird to drive for 16 hours with no A/C in the south in the summer. Now you want to build another car to drive who knows how long even further south.

Where do I sign up, cause I get it...

What's another car or 12 among friends...

SVreX wrote: And I have a whole lot of REALLY cool friends to show for it, have seen INCREDIBLE creativity, have learned VAST amounts of stuff, and have earned more respect for both myself and the other competitors the longer I hang around. I get calls from all over the country when I am in a crisis (like the tornado a few years ago), or when friends I've met through the Challenge are in crisis (sicknesses, prayer concerns, joys, losses). I consider that a BIG privelage.

That may be the coolest part. I know there's a crazy black dude in Texas with more love for Yugo's than is healthy that I can call a friend. I know there's a bar in Knoxville where I am welcome. I know there's a guy up in New England who I could show up at his front door and he'd teach me to make the most badass headers known to man, after dragging me to the swap meet. There's a dude and his hot girlfriend somewhere in Indiana who would clear a spot on the floor for me. There's a guy in Michigan who will challenge my intellectual highs as well as my sophmoric lows. There's a guy in south GA who would literally give me the shirt off of his back if I needed it. There are a hundred or so others, each uniquely awesome in their own way. And they all know there's a guy in Braselton who has an open door, an open fridge, and is ready to help out or hang out the moment they need either.

AngryCorvair wrote:

sanyarcosean wrote: AngryCorvair, Who was it that came up with the new scoring format after Andy brought the Nova his first year and STOMPED everyone in the drags? Wasnt his name Pat or something??

yeah, he's a bitch. clearly doesn't get it. maybe GRM will take back his honorable mention for the Phil Kime Memorial Spirit Of The Event award that he got in '03, or maybe his Highest Finishing Classic Car award that he got in '04. and maybe they'll undo the scoring change that he suggested, that they adopted in '05 and have kept in place ever since. and speaking of not getting it, remember when he pointed out that he shouldn't really have gotten HFCC that year because Alfadriver finished higher, and even though the alfa spider was a '78 it qualified for HFCC because it is substantially similar to a pre-'73 alfa spider? what a douche. he definitely doesn't get it.

sorry, I hate to "bitch" but what are you talking about? You have me mixed up with someone else.

He was picking on someone else.

Lets add it all up... for suggesting consideration of a change in the formula for evaulating entries and trying to get others to see another point of view, I have been called:

a "fool, the odd one out, bitter, a bitch(LOL!)", not just a "douche", but also a "total douche", a "clueless dude", multiple times told that "I was someone who doesn't get it", told I was "nuts" (but at least that guy called me sir!), told numerous times that "I don't understand", I think, not sure but I think one guy was refering to me when he said that my "priorities are severely screwed up and you won't succeed as a human being in our society for very long", "I am out of my mind", that "reading comprehension is a little hard for you" by the guy who was trying to "stimulate intellectual discussion...". I was told " I don't "have the drive and creativity", that I wanted to "punish those who do", that I the idea was "arbitrary",16vCorey was the best though, he wrote something about "jerking off to internet porn" and wrote "Duh" in reference to a comment I had made in an effort to explain, he mentioned that I was "a weird dude," Let me continue...I was called a "troll", a "berkeley (another LOL post)", "ridiculous, lazy", that I was "hating on a BMW", The idea of at least looking at this crazy idea of mine was said multiple times to have the potential to "destroy the challenge as a whole, it "would insult the people", that I was "seeking to change the rules simply because you're losing might be a sign that you need an ego check", that I was whining."

You guys certainly sound like a fun, open-minded bunch that anyone would love to hang out with! Come on guys, get a hold of yourselves.

'Sup guys, I'm here to get paid for my labor.

You forgot a few of the better descriptions.

Regardless, you started your post with a claimer for $2009, then changed to $5000. The majority of the competitors and fans like it as is. A very small number want a claimer rule....I doubt any compete in any form of racing.

Just a suggestion, why not participate before proposing a rule change?

I havent had the honor of competing in the challenge yet, but i went last year, and was floored with the quality of the cars. ill be there this year, and im fairly certain ill come in dead last or close to it, but i really dont care, as long as im there (though being not dead last would certainly be nice :) ) there is a big difference between simple dollar value, and actual worth. you cant put a value on that, these cars have ingrained the souls of those who built them, , adding a claimer rule would take that away, and that's what makes these events what they are...
leave the claimer rules for events where the cars are supposed to be E36 M3...

wheels777 wrote: You forgot a few of the better descriptions.

No, I think I got the most of the entertaining ones summed up.

wheels777 wrote: Regardless, you started your post with a claimer for $2009, then changed to $5000.

You're point is...? Its called having an open dialogue, you know having a discussion, when one guys indicated the claim rule would result in junk cars, I reacted to his comment by being flexible with the amount because I read that to be his objection, not the concept of a claim rule. I also said I was not locked into a claim rule but was open to almost any idea that would take into account some measure of a car's value after someone is done working on it.

wheels777 wrote: The majority of the competitors and fans like it as is. A very small number want a claimer rule....I doubt any compete in any form of racing.

This may or may not be a slam, I can't tell and at this point I really don't care. Even though you are repeating what is obvious at this point, you are correct, the majority on this board like things the way they are and thats fine, it was just a suggestion to see if others would agree.

wheels777 wrote: Just a suggestion, why not participate before proposing a rule change?

Again, you're repeating what others have already suggested, that is, you can't comment on anything unless you have been there. I've already answered that, to indicate that I have no right to comment really is an indirect slam on the magazine. I really believe the articles both in print and online do a pretty good job of summing up the event, and I don't think attending would change my mind, it could, I'm open-minded enough that it just might, but at this point I doubt it. But really now, looking over my previous post, the summation of insults and name calling, if these posts represent the type of people that show up, why would I want to hang out with this kind of crowd? Like I indicated, they seem pretty close-minded and rude for a supposedly creative group of people.

plance1 wrote: You guys certainly sound like a fun, open-minded bunch that anyone would love to hang out with! Come on guys, get a hold of yourselves.

That's actually a pretty good point, but it comes after a bit of insulting and condescension on your part. Let's all just back up a bit and be polite. This really is a fun, low-key event. I'd love for you to come and check it out. I bet any one of these guys would love to show you around the paddock.

Entry forms and whatnot are being posted shortly.

924guy wrote: I havent had the honor of competing in the challenge yet, but i went last year, and was floored with the quality of the cars. ill be there this year, and im fairly certain ill come in dead last or close to it, but i really dont care, as long as im there (though being not dead last would certainly be nice :) ) there is a big difference between simple dollar value, and actual worth. you cant put a value on that, these cars have ingrained the souls of those who built them, , adding a claimer rule would take that away, and that's what makes these events what they are... leave the claimer rules for events where the cars are supposed to be E36 M3...

In spite of all the fuss, the defensiveness, the mob-mentality of piling on someone with a different idea, I agree, the quality of the cars is very high and it’s clear there is a strong emotional attachment everyone has to their cars, who doesn’t? But yes, every car has a value so I disagree, you can't put a monetary value on the intangible benefits, the fun, the camaraderie that you get out of working on cars with your buddies, but when it's all said and done, a dollar ("street value" as one guy put it) can be placed on your vehicle. It’s hard but it’s doable and typically because of all their hardwork, people always, always think their cars are worth more than they really are.

Per Schroeder wrote:

plance1 wrote: You guys certainly sound like a fun, open-minded bunch that anyone would love to hang out with! Come on guys, get a hold of yourselves.

That's actually a pretty good point, but it comes after a bit of insulting and condescension on your part. Let's all just back up a bit and be polite. This really is a fun, low-key event. I'd love for you to come and check it out. I bet any one of these guys would love to show you around the paddock. Entry forms and whatnot are being posted shortly.

Sorry Per, the rudeness and insults didn't come AFTER anything from me other than expressing an idea and I didn't call you or anyone else a douche, a fool, etc.

plance1 wrote: Lets add it all up... for suggesting consideration of a change in the formula for evaulating entries and trying to get others to see another point of view, I have been called: a "fool, the odd one out, bitter, a bitch(LOL!)", not just a "douche", but also a "total douche", a "clueless dude", multiple times told that "I was someone who doesn't get it", told I was "nuts" (but at least that guy called me sir!), told numerous times that "I don't understand", I think, not sure but I think one guy was refering to me when he said that my "priorities are severely screwed up and you won't succeed as a human being in our society for very long", "I am out of my mind", that "reading comprehension is a little hard for you" by the guy who was trying to "stimulate intellectual discussion...". I was told " I don't "have the drive and creativity", that I wanted to "punish those who do", that I the idea was "arbitrary",16vCorey was the best though, he wrote something about "jerking off to internet porn" and wrote "Duh" in reference to a comment I had made in an effort to explain, he mentioned that I was "a weird dude," Let me continue...I was called a "troll", a "berkeley (another LOL post)", "ridiculous, lazy", that I was "hating on a BMW", The idea of at least looking at this crazy idea of mine was said multiple times to have the potential to "destroy the challenge as a whole, it "would insult the people", that I was "seeking to change the rules simply because you're losing might be a sign that you need an ego check", that I was whining." You guys certainly sound like a fun, open-minded bunch that anyone would love to hang out with! Come on guys, get a hold of yourselves.

Woe is you.

What's funny is that Angry's most recent post isn't ripping you, it's ripping Angry.

Again, there is a value target, it's $2009. If you go to a pro shop to have the work done, you have to include that labor cost. If you are a pro, and use your own shop, you have to factor in some labor (it's in the rules). If you are a pro, and have time left over to waste on a useless project at your own house, with your own tools, labor is free (and I resemble the last part, since I'm one of a handful of members here who IS in the auto industry...)

This year, $2009. If I were going to include labor in the "story", I would, as it would be a compelling story. It was when Andy's stories are told, that's for sure. Again, since people pay good money to be entertained, and most competitors do this for entertainment, the person who works the most should get an award....

Hmm.

Get's me thinking.

And I still owe Per something out of glass.... (I haven't forgotten).

Eric

Plance-the rudeness came from you not giving up on a "suggestion" that was completely rejected by those who actively participate in the contest. The powers that be have tried very very hard to simply encourage us to do as much as possible with very little cash outlay. They have also tried very hard to keep the rules to a minimum to allow us to surprise them. We like it that way.
We have had this discussion many times. A claim rule is a source for a lot of friction that would eliminate some of the top cars every year. Valuing labor hours and placing some sort of scoring system on that is damn near impossible. We like time slips.

MrJoshua wrote: Plance-the rudeness came from you not giving up on a "suggestion" that was completely rejected by those who actively participate in the contest. The powers that be have tried very very hard to simply encourage us to do as much as possible with very little cash outlay. They have also tried very hard to keep the rules to a minimum to allow us to surprise them. We like it that way. We have had this discussion many times. A claim rule is a source for a lot of friction that would eliminate some of the top cars every year. Valuing labor hours and placing some sort of scoring system on that is damn near impossible. We like time slips.

No amount of wishful, revisionist posts are going to change the fact that I was attacked first, I think the first guy who did so started the ball rolling by saying I was nuts and it was pile on after that. Per's initial post was a one line, sarcastic dismissal. I complimented those who were polite and I even complimented the quality of the cars. Im not complaining about the name calling but Im not going to igore it and let someone say I started it because I was merely defending and explaining an idea. Go back and read each post one by one, I did, and the rudeness on those who disagreed is pretty revealing.

DILYSI Dave wrote: ... And they all know there's a guy in Braselton who has an open door, an open fridge, and is ready to help out or hang out the moment they need either.

I REALLY need to stop in Braselton one of these days!

So plance-I reread the first 2 pages to find out if we really are the jerks we are being made out to be. So far I found Angry telling you you don't get it, SvRex telling you you are nuts for telling Angry he didn't get it, and Wheels telling you you dont get it. In the meantime you said the magazine poorly photographs and describes the event, we have our heads in the sand, we dont get it, you get it better than we do, etc... You combined that with a bunch of "oooh I gotcha!" type of statements. Later you attacked the guy with the BMW by characterizing him as a spoiled rich guy who buys his labor. So basically what I see is an internet argument where you are getting your feelings hurt because we strongly disagree with you, and you dishing out about as much as you get. There's my revisionist history for you.
I will say what has been said again and again. PLEASE build a car and come. Stay in the host hotel and hang out with the idiots BSing until the wee hours of the morning. Talk to them about any and all opinions you have on the contest. Tell them your craziest build ideas and watch them get excited. We are all actually pretty nice in person. If you do come I will be the first to offer you a beer.

plance1 wrote:

AngryCorvair wrote:

but what it *really* does is identify you as someone who doesn't get it, and i know you've been on this board for long enough to have seen this subject beaten to death over the years. please leave this subject alone until you build a car and compete.

I politely disagree, to say that only people who have built a challenge car can comment is like saying no one could talk about War unless they have been in one, or a person can't discusss economics unless they have a degree in economics... And saying that you want to start tallying up the labor proves that you miss the point, in fact I get it more than you do. What can you build for $2,009?

This is the point where your argument lost credibility.

I have been to two challenges. I have not been in 5 years. Whenever there is a rules conversation I am involved, it ultimately comes down to Tim and Per and their directive for the rules. The fact that I have an opinion and an interest and have invested my money in their system does not give me the right to demand change but rather the ability to speak in an open forum and have my opinions weighted by the people making these decisions.

Your opinion was stated, Per said it is not going to happen, that vein is closed.

I look forward to bringing another car, you are welcome to join me at the challenge.

Yawn.

plance1 wrote: Per's initial post was a one line, sarcastic dismissal.

My initial post in this thread:

"I think you guys have a handle on what we're not going to reintroduce the claim rule."

?

Per Schroeder wrote:

plance1 wrote: Per's initial post was a one line, sarcastic dismissal.

My initial post in this thread: "I think you guys have a handle on what we're not going to reintroduce the claim rule." ?

Well, since "you don't get it" is a personal attack on someone character, what do you expect?

It's a rather interesting take on an argument. But it's always effective when your basis of argumet starts to fall apart, you then attack the character of the people who disagree with you. That way, they are evil, and you are right.

He hasn't even acknowledged the idea that people get entertainment out of work, and people PAY money for entertainment, so that the MORE you work, the more money one could theoretically put into the budget. Or, more realistically, the more one works, the much more interesting articles you can write.

$2009 limit, more work is better.

Eric

Osterizer wrote: 'Sup guys, I'm here to get paid for my labor.

I just about lost a mouthful of coffee over that one!

plance1 said: 16vCorey was the best though

Awww! I'm honored!

But seriously though, I asked in a few posts what you like to do in your spare time and if you get paid for it, and what the point of your proposed rule is, etc. and got nothing. I was pretty serious (although I tried to end the post with a bit of humor) in the post about the concourse. From what I've gathered from the intent of your proposed rule changes, it sounds to be in direct conflict with the concourse, and would produce some ugly-ass cars that wouldn't make very good magazine fodder.

Now if I could just figure out how to get paid for jerking off to internet pR0n.

16vCorey wrote: Now if I could just figure out how to get paid for jerking off to internet pR0n.

Have you considered public service?

This is classic troll behavior, plance--change up your positions frequently to keep the argument going, and most important focus on the personal and then try to keep that aspect of the "discussion" in play despite numerous attempts by others to argue the matter rationally and politely.

This isn't your first swing at this topic:

How Real is the $2005 Challenge?

Let it go. Or just go. Your choice.

Margie