Crap can racing questions

So it looks like my mechanic (and friend) are going to attempt some crap can racing. He has an e30 already done and ready to go, so now it's a matter of finding some other drivers and picking a race.

Before doing so, I'm curious about different arrangements folks have made when it comes to renting seats. I think he and I will most likely end up co-owning the car, and then charging other drivers a seat fee per event.

Here are my questions:

1. What is a reasonable seat fee?
2. Does the seat fee cover everything (fuel, tires, other consumables) or is that charged extra?
3. What happens if a rental driver damages the car?
4. What happens if there is a malfunction on the car that ends up damaging the rental driver?

While I don't want to overthink it, I also don't want to expose myself or others to potentially massive liability.

Thoughts?

1. We've been getting $700 per, but driver fees are going up $50.

2. Everything but fuel and the price of (optional) practice.

3. You have a damaged car.

4. My in house council drew up a waiver. Hopefully it'll never be an issue.

1. $600-$700 depending on consumables.

2. Yes.

3. Race cars break. People wreck. Get drivers who are halfway decent people, not the other way around.

4. Never really considered that. Our rule has always been "If you're over half dead, we're gonna stuff you in your car and push you off a goddamned cliff, so mama gets the big check."

1. 600$ was what I last paid

2. Yes, but extra for the optional pratice. Some teams split the amount for the gas, Your choice,

3. Your weekend is over, and you have to fix it before the next race. But honestly, unless the guy is a complete douchebag idiot, he won't want to be the guy that ruined everyone's weekend by over-driving someone else's car.

4. Those are 500$ race cars. There is already a waiver at the track, and if it passes tech, it is deemed "good enough". I don't think it's an issue.

dyintorace wrote: So it looks like my mechanic (and friend) are going to attempt some crap can racing. He has an e30 already done and ready to go, so now it's a matter of finding some other drivers and picking a race. Before doing so, I'm curious about different arrangements folks have made when it comes to renting seats. I think he and I will most likely end up co-owning the car, and then charging other drivers a seat fee per event. Here are my questions: 1. What is a reasonable seat fee? 2. Does the seat fee cover everything (fuel, tires, other consumables) or is that charged extra? 3. What happens if a rental driver damages the car? 4. What happens if there is a malfunction on the car that ends up damaging the rental driver? While I don't want to overthink it, I also don't want to expose myself or others to potentially massive liability. Thoughts?

My view from the outsider, since I don't own a part of the car I drive in Chump/Lemons, but I do work on it.

1. Depends. For instance, since I help with work on the car (and didn the entire exterior cosmetics), I don't pay a rental/seat fee. Not sure if any of the other drivers do either, since all are involved in working on the car, or towing the car, or whatever.
2. For consumables (icnluding cost of towing to the track, etc) all of the drivers split the fees equally (at least in our group). For the races I've done it ranges from $250-450 depending on track, whether we use more than 1 set of tires, fuel, etc. Plus whatever my share of the entry fee is, and my share of practice day fees (if I drive them).
3. Never really discussed it, honestly. If I wreck the car because of something "my fault" I would intend to help fix it. Then again, we all rallycross e30s together, and run an e30 in lemons/chump....and there is no part of an e30 that can't be replaced on the cheap, really. Shells of old e30s are dime a dozen in chump/lemons condition, really....since rust isn't a big concern. But we're all friends that run the car, so I expect we would work out something mutually amenable.
4. Good question. Our car is slow enough that I've never much considered the point. I have good health insurance :)

On point four, get insurance, have the rent a driver get insurance, and download a hold harmless agreement and have the driver sign it. No point in leaving yourself wide open to loosing everything you have. In BC, I can get racing medical insurance for a year for around 50 dollars, so there is really no argument against having it.

bearmtnmartin wrote: In BC, I can get racing medical insurance for a year for around 50 dollars, so there is really no argument against having it.

What is "racing medical insurance?" IS BC British Columbia? Is there racing medical insurance in the U.S.?

David

I got supplemental medical insurance that covers me while competing in auto sports for around $50.00. It was through the British Columbia Automobile Association(BCAA). So I expect its available for youse guys as well from someone similar.

Specialty insurance would be a good idea. Odds are a normal provider would try to weasel out of shelling out big bucks, arguing you being a dumbass driving a $500 car on a live race track is your own problem.

1. I've done 2 races (1 chump, and 1 lemons) chump was24hr and $750 the lemons was 14hr ( 8 and 6) and was $500

2. that covered everything .. but the cars didn't live all that far from the events

3. chump team had several GoPros and videoed each session … if you were a DB then they expected you to make it good … we all know each other…

the lemons just made it plain that he'd like help if you were the DB that caused the problem

1. you bring your own ins

We try to run near the front of the pack in these types races.

Point 1)

When you factor in Fuel (450), entry fees (1000-1400), tires(600), brake pads(200), (oil, filters, rags, hoses 100), tire mounting(100), fuel for travel(250), practice (150-350) etc....

It comes out to about $3500.00 for our team to race each weekend. That comes out to about $900.00 per driver (we usually only go with 4 drivers).

I know that we are more expensive than others, but we are also not making ANY money off of this.

2) Everythings covered

3) They pay for it. I don't care if it is their fault or not. Same with anybody else on the team.

4) I never thought of this. However, if the car passes tech and the driver willingly gets in the car, they are making their own decisions.

Rob R.

dyintorace wrote: Here are my questions: 1. What is a reasonable seat fee? 2. Does the seat fee cover everything (fuel, tires, other consumables) or is that charged extra? 3. What happens if a rental driver damages the car? 4. What happens if there is a malfunction on the car that ends up damaging the rental driver?

1. $600-700. This isn't even a break-even proposition for the team. This is market price, driven by supply and demand.

2. Yes

3. Until it happens, you don't really know. Assume you're boned.

4. If you had any significant assets worth suing for, you can probably afford to subsidize an empty seat instead of filling it below-cost.

I have been on both sides of this equation. There are three basic categories of drivers in Lemons --

1. Team Captains...these are the guys that are footing the lion's share of the expense and work.

2. Team Members...these are the guys that are pulling their weight financially and via contribution to the effort / crew.

3. Renters...These are the guys that show up when it's time for them to drive, disappear when the car breaks and reappear when it's time to drink your beer. This is the median renter...you may get better or worse.

Thanks for the feedback folks. VERY helpful information.

I highly recommend asking your question on the LeMons forum.

http://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/

Fees? Damages? Waivers? What are these things you speak of?

And this is why I don't go Lemons racing. Though the car cost more initially, it's cheaper to run my stupidly quick and fun sports racer than a dead-slow hooptie. And as I'm old and deeply desocialized, I got the binge drinking and theme parties out of my system for the most part by the early 90's.

The main attraction for LeMons/ChumpCar racing is track time over a weekend. In one weekend, I was able to get as much time behind the wheel in W2W competition as my Father had in his entire life.

Biggest issue I've seen is inexperienced crew chiefs not keeping a corral around their inexperienced drivers. DE's/Track Days/TimeAttack does not equate to experience in W2W. Many times the stupid accidents are caused by "track day" or "DE" drivers rather than experienced Road Racers. Track Day/DE folks don't have the experience in W2W competition and that tends to put them into positions they shouldn't be due to a lack of patience at speeds only experienced drivers can reach. The newbs usually aren't too bad, except when they change directions and fail to hold their line, which is typically caught and handled with black flags, while the more experienced drivers can many times avoid those incidents by being very careful with their passes.

In reply to motomoron:

Not to start an argument or anything, but I would be curious to see how running the sports racer is cheaper per track time.

$3500 all inclusive for 24 hours of track time works out to $145.00 per hour on track.

Worst case scenario is the 14 hour races. Then it is $266 per hour on track.

Neither of those include the practice time on track either.

Just curious, not tryin to start anything.

In reply to wvumtnbkr:

It's not cheaper on the basis of track time - it's cheaper on the basis of race weekends.

To run an SCCA MARRS series event at Summit Point:

• Entry fee for a single sanction $275

• 2 or 3 heat cycles on a set of Hoosiers at $115.25/cycle

• 6-8 Gallons of 110 leaded at $8.95/gallon

• 2 tanks in the tow vehicle - $130

• Breakfast and lunch from Sheetz plus drinks for me + crew chief $50

In an ideal race weekend I'd run as few laps as possible as slowly as possible to win or place as high as possible toward the season championship. It's a different thing.