Do you consider it "racing"?

RE: Autocross as a game

I took a ride with one of our "vetrans" in a Z06 at our last event. On cold tires, he grabbed 2nd, and the rear end came around. As we were sliding, I looked out my window at the rapidly approaching lightpole that I had never considered a hazard before. Fortunately a lot of momentum was scrubbed and a bit of grip was found before we crossed the point of no return. As we returned to the grid, he said "was that pole coming up fast or what?" Not sure I could have died from the impact but it would have ruined my day.

In reply to chrispy:

Which reminds me, you guys who instruct complete newbies on a road course are out of your berkeleying minds, and I appreciate what you do.

If this thread has taught me one thing it's this........don't be that grumpy jerk. Actually---it's the only thing this thread has taught me!

When I was a young-- wide-eyed kid, I attended my first auto-cross in the Chicago Region SCCA. My buddy and I were extremely excited to actually be able to throw our cars around in a controlled environment without the cops bothering us. Yes, we were kids, so we had lots of enthusiasm and questions.

I remember us checking out one of the top cars in the region-- which was a very impressive build. As we were geeking out about the car the owner arrived--he was one of the "fast" guys in the region. We asked a few questions--- and were shot down immediately by this arrogant prick. I swear, you would have thought he had just beaten Shumacher for the world title. Massive ego and a horrible attitude.

Fortunately we looked past this richardhead and still had a good time. It's something to think about though. We are all ambassadors to this hobby. Remember that even if you're having a bad day-- be nice to the wide-eyed kid--- we were all there once, and we need these kids to keep the hobby going.

Don't be that grumpy old prick.

chrispy wrote: RE: Autocross as a game I took a ride with one of our "vetrans" in a Z06 at our last event. On cold tires, he grabbed 2nd, and the rear end came around. As we were sliding, I looked out my window at the rapidly approaching lightpole that I had never considered a hazard before. Fortunately a lot of momentum was scrubbed and a bit of grip was found before we crossed the point of no return. As we returned to the grid, he said "was that pole coming up fast or what?" Not sure I could have died from the impact but it would have ruined my day.

I don't mean to laugh... but LOL (not at you... student's reaction). It is funny how slow it seems when you sit on that side long enough. I had a guy lose the rear coming out of the fastest turn at Thunderbolt as he took too much curb in the rain.

The car snapped around and I had time to Yell both feet IN! and think things like "this is going to hurt" "I hope we miss the concrete" and even bring my feet up and arms in while I watched the pit wall approach at 80+ mph.

We did not miss the concrete but tagged it at an angle that didn't hurt too bad. As I was shaking glass out of my clothes and noticing the whole unibody of the car was twisted, suspension was bent/broken my student said "I hope I can get this fixed up so we can go out this afternoon".

This thread reminds me of a

In reply to Joe Gearin:

Unfortunatly after hanging out with both autocross and rallycross people I see that kind of crap more at an autocross type setting than than an off road setting. I'm still there being only 22 and about 3.5 years into racing and back not long ago (still do actually ) when I start drooling over some nice car more times than not the autocross guys turn out being full of themselves while the rally guy usually will tell you all about it.

Of course this isn't everyone and everytime, but it seems like more offroad people want to be your friend rather than being an arrogant prick.

God, I feel dumber for having read this thread.

ouchx100 wrote: Of course this isn't everyone and everytime, but it seems like more offroad people want to be your friend rather than being an arrogant prick.

Oddly enough, the same statement could apply to bicycles, too. Roadies aren't the most friendly bunch.

alfadriver wrote: In reply to Tom1200: While there are two skaters on a speed skating course, they are not racing each other. They race the clock. (other than short track skating) Still, why make the distinction? So when cars/bikes start at different intervals, that's not racing? Isle of Mann, Targa Florio, Mille Migla, etc? Seems very much like it.

I would think most reasonable people would think averaging over 120mph along the cliffs of the Isle of Mann is racing. So was the original Cannonball Baker Trophy Dash. In both cases it may be nuts that are doing the racing, but they certainly are racing! Wheel to wheel inside safety fences is nothing in the league of racing coast to coast in traffic or even one lap of the Isle of Mann or the Around Britain Powerboat Race!

So is Bonneville, the solar car race, luge, etc. Don't knock something just because you're not currently doing it.

Worst part of being that grumpy prick was he thought he was having a private conversation......now he's gotta sell his NBA team!!!!! JM&J

unevolved wrote:

ouchx100 wrote: Of course this isn't everyone and everytime, but it seems like more offroad people want to be your friend rather than being an arrogant prick.

Oddly enough, the same statement could apply to bicycles, too. Roadies aren't the most friendly bunch.

This would make an excellent tangental conversation! Lets discuss road bikes vs cars, then maybe transition into bashing Harleys! So much win in one thread could hardly be contained

tooms351 wrote: Worst part of being that grumpy prick was he thought he was having a private conversation......now he's gotta sell his NBA team!!!!! JM&J

ouchx100 wrote: In reply to Joe Gearin: Unfortunatly after hanging out with both autocross and rallycross people I see that kind of crap more at an autocross type setting than than an off road setting. I'm still there being only 22 and about 3.5 years into racing and back not long ago (still do actually ) when I start drooling over some nice car more times than not the autocross guys turn out being full of themselves while the rally guy usually will tell you hop in for a ride-along. Of course this isn't everyone and everytime, but it seems like more offroad people want to be your friend rather than being an arrogant prick.

Fixed.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

unevolved wrote:

ouchx100 wrote: Of course this isn't everyone and everytime, but it seems like more offroad people want to be your friend rather than being an arrogant prick.

Oddly enough, the same statement could apply to bicycles, too. Roadies aren't the most friendly bunch.

This would make an excellent tangental conversation! Lets discuss road bikes vs cars, then maybe transition into bashing Harleys! So much win in one thread could hardly be contained

Don't forget about bro-dozer coal-rollin' trucks....

Alfadriver, please understand that I don't think of autocross as racing, again it's probably is but I don't think of it that way. I probably should have just answered "no I do not see it as racing" as mentioned I do not believe one form of motorsport is somehow better than the other. Also keep in mind I take very little seriously (other than safety) when it comes to playing with my cars and motorcycles.

Now on the subject of people who somehow think they are above it all; I do not think that autocrossers have a patent on arrogant arse-hats, I've encountered them at events from the local Kart track to ALMS, what makes it absurd is that you are at a local event, no reason for folks to act this way as long as you are not interrupting them.Stage rally guys usually are pretty good for sure but people involved in rally are very different.  The most arrogant person I ever encountered at an event was a road racer, I offered to give up some of my paid pit space as they could use the extra space, I was getting in my truck to move it when the guy gave some arrogant douche answer, I promptly go out locked the truck and went back to hanging out........his crew actually started laughing. At the next event he lost the attitude, we were very friendly after that. 
One of the things that made me join the SCCA is how friendly everyone was at  our local autocross, they still are. Due note that my region generally refers to autocross as racing. 
This one is always a loaded topic.

           Tom

By show of hands, how many of the contributors supporting the position that autocross is racing have both autocrossed and raced w2w?

motomoron wrote: By show of hands, how many of the contributors supporting the position that autocross is racing have both autocrossed and raced w2w?

Me. Though I support no real position since it doesn't matter. I just argue points for the sake of discussion. When I'm talking to motorsports people about an event, I call it by its name....autocross, rallycross, enduro racing, drag racing, stage rally, etc. When I'm talking to non-motorsports people, I generally just say "racing" so as to not have to try to explain to them what rallycross or Chumpcar or whatever is.

I consider myself as someone who races cars as a hobby. I considered myself the same when I first started at autocross, and still do with rallycross and wheel-to-wheel. That said, many of my friends only autocross....and I generally think of them (to myself) as "autocrossers" and not as "racers.", but mostly just to distinguish them from my rallycross friends and my road racing friends (only a few of which overlap between the different motorsports) So the terms are just a matter of convenience and/or clarification as far as I'm concerned. It's not a elitist thing. Call it racing, call it automotive competition (though that sounds like some kind of car show), call it time trials, call it a contest of speed and style (drift?). Why does it even matter? That said, would love to see one of the big-mouth road racing elitists walk right up to a Rally America driver and tell him he's not a "racer" though.

Of course, I had a random guy in the smoking pit at work tell me that Chumpcar wasn't "real" racing (and he knew what it was). Then he went on to tell me about the Z06 he runs in time attack. Ironic.

Next topic: Since most of this racing (or whatever you want to call it) is done under the auspices of SCCA, the Sports Car Club of America.....let's discuss what a "sports car" is.

motomoron wrote: By show of hands, how many of the contributors supporting the position that autocross is racing have both autocrossed and raced w2w?

Ju looking fo a fight cause if I show my hands, Ima smack you upside da haid...

I've only autocrossed and have no interest in semantic arguments. What I have observed, though, is that w2w folks who badmouth autocrossing generally never tried it or weren't very good at it. The classy ones who have done both quickly acknowledge that their success in w2w was largely based on the skills they acquired dodging cones. The others have style because they have no class.

It is only racing if:

"It doesn't matter if you win by an inch, or win by a mile."

Surprised y'all didn't know that.

Irish44j great answer, this sums it up best. It also highlights that whether it's autocross or motocross or whatever anytime spent learning the limits of a vehicle will carry over. Off on one of my usual tangents......Jacky Ickx was a national trials champion and he credits the throttle control learned trials riding as a key part of his success. As a road racer I know that my ability to go quickly on cold tires is down to autocross, even if one had no interest in autocross it would be worth going to a few events just for this reason alone. Same thing on car control, that is down to road racing motorcycles as to go fast on a bike you need to be able to slide both tires.......if you are comfrortanle doing it on 2 wheels a car is a breeze. Again I may be one of the no answers but I find Autocross a great way to get in to competition and totally understand why people choose to focus on it. The events are easily accessable and there is a national championship if you want to get really serious. I especially like that there is way more to it then people think.

     Tom

motomoron wrote: By show of hands, how many of the contributors supporting the position that autocross is racing have both autocrossed and raced w2w?

motomoron wrote: By show of hands, how many of the contributors supporting the position that autocross is racing have both autocrossed and raced w2w?

Me, and I still say don't knock anyone's race venue just because you're not currently involved with it too.

I have autocrossed a bunch, still do occasionally, and even before I raced wheel to wheel I didn't consider it to be racing. This is not to dismiss or degrade autocross in any way, and I tell many newbies that show up at the stock car track to go join the sports car club, because its a great place to learn car control. I'm not sure, but I think the difference is racing vs timetrial. In racing, you need to pass, or be passed by, another competitor. In a timetrial, you don't unless you are dramatically slower or faster. A Targa competition is a timetrial. That does not make it any less dangerous or challenging, but it does make it something other than a race.

I submit this piece of evidence. One of the best motorsports films ever made (IMO)

"Race For Survival"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2thf2NwMYE

iceracer wrote: Are race car drivers athletes ?

I say that they're not, but they need to be athletic.