I feel like I've seen this conversation before.
I feel like I've seen this conversation before.
In reply to Lof8 - Andy :
Probably because every time some says Jag, someone else says SWAP. Within an hour or two, here comes frenchyd.
From there it's pretty much straight to:
Dirtydog (Forum Supporter) said:Frenchy, DBAD. I can be in your corner at times..... But come on now. My 2004 XJ8 has basically a Ford engine in it. (Yeah, yeah, joint effort, don't need a history lesson). So, if you put a Ford in a Jaguar, Sir Lyons turns in his grave? There's a butt for every seat, if someone puts a Chevy motor in a Jag, MG, or a Fox Body Mustang, it's their vision. that's what this sport is all about.
I wouldn't care if you put a Ford, Dodge or Chevy in any car. It's your car. Do what you want. I'm anything but a purist. I'll use a Chevy gearbox over a Jaguar. Come to think of it so does Jaguar.
But a well done swap is expensive time consuming. So what do you really gain? In the example you used it's not a bolt in. It doesn't achieve anything I mean Jaguar has 545 horsepower in their 5 liter while a few GT 40's and special mustangs maybe make more but why? Ruin a GT 40? Or a special Mustang?
I haven't looked at either but I suspect the Jag is a bit smaller and lighter.?
Finally not every Chevy V8 is not spectacular. Most don't have forged crankshafts All Jaguars are forged from EN 40 steel. Most Chevy's are cast Iron while the V12 is die cast aluminum. ( stronger and more accurate than sand cast ) If you ever taken a look at a V12 and you've seen the inside of a dragster engine. There is a lot of similarity. The prime difference is 4 extra cylinders. ( OK modern dragsters are made from billet. ;-)
The V12 was designed to go out to 500 cu in. And you can tell by the massive internal parts
My point is Chevy makes a good engine. A lot of people "know" Chevy's but if you go racing. Or are on the autobahn in Germany the Chevy isn't built for that while Jaguar is.
I raced my Black Jack for 40 years and never blew it up. Most stock parts. Can't say that about most Chevy's.
frenchyd said:I wouldn't care if you put a Ford or Chevy in any car. It's your car. Do what you want. I would ask why?
In the example you used it's not a bolt in. It doesn't achieve anything I mean Jaguar has 545 horsepower in their 5 liter while a few Gt 40's and special mustangs maybe
It's often a matter of being able to work with things you understand and are comfortable with. I wouldn't be shocked to see you swap a Jag engine into something that was a swap candidate, as it's something you'd be comfortable working with.
And sometimes people do something just because they can, not because they have a good reason to do it.
Well, the 4.2l jag goes through the 1/4 mile in 17.9 seconds, while the similarly heavy Impala SS does it in 15.4
I don't know how to convert 2.5 seconds into DIN or NET or gross hp, but I'm guessing it's a lot!
To be fair however, a small block Chevy swap is not something I'd really be interested in for my jag. Maybe a Chevy V8 that is less than 30 years old, or a Tesla something, or who knows?
The point of this thread was I thought it was interesting that an engine swapped vehicle sold for so much more than a similar stock vehicle. There are a few other cases like this (see FM miatas, for example), but neither the i6 or the V8 jag will be "fast" by today's standards, which is absolutely untrue of the FM miatas. So I find it interesting.
I kinda want to get an old Jag, pull the 4.2 and throw a turbo 4.9 in it. With the turbo, engine weight will be about the same
Toyman! said:In reply to Lof8 - Andy :
Probably because every time some says Jag, someone else says SWAP. Within an hour or two, here comes frenchyd.
From there it's pretty much straight to:
and he repeats the same bs, lies and statistics that we always disprove. Like all SBC V8's were 160hp.
Mr_Asa said:I kinda want to get an old Jag, pull the 4.2 and throw a turbo 4.9 in it. With the turbo, engine weight will be about the same
Oops! That cast Iron 6 cylinder designed during WW2 fire watch weighs 730 pounds and only yields 258 inches.
Not a light weight by any means.
You could turbo that old Iron horse and pull -5-600 horsepower from it safely. But Zimbabwean sure any modern engine is going to be a lot lighter.
In reply to bobzilla :
Well Bobzilla. The most common 350 made 160 net horsepower
Yes some chevys 350's made more.
but most didn't.
rslifkin said:frenchyd said:In reply to Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) :
I think you are confusing gross horsepower with Net horsepower.
Yes the Corvettes had one 350 rated at 370 gross or Advertized. ( LTI ). 1972 But once they converted to SAE NET. Even The Corvette dropped to 160.
Later Corvettes with EFI did climb up from that. ( I owned a 1986 ) But those are pretty pricey engines. Not saying that it never happens. But the cost for one of those to stick in a 4200 pound 4 door sedan? Really? Frankly I've never seen it done. I see mostly Target masters and junkyard engines.
Someone could do it I suppose.The early small blocks definitely make more than 160hp net, at least before they choked them down for emissions. Gross hp isn't going to be more than double the net hp, so the 370 -> 160hp drop isn't just a gross vs net difference.
But I'd also bet that many of the SBCs swapped into things aren't stock. There are plenty of reasons to hate on an SBC or the idea of swapping it, but it does have the advantage of a huge (and relatively inexpensive) aftermarket for performance upgrades.
I could agree with you that some Chevy's made more than 160 horsepower. Not most.
Were some modified? Probably. I know that if I put one in and it wasn't a tire smoker I'd toss a camshaft and aftermarket heads aftermarket intake manifold etc. until it was. Nobody would ever put the Jag back in and slink away
Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:Well, the 4.2l jag goes through the 1/4 mile in 17.9 seconds, while the similarly heavy Impala SS does it in 15.4
I don't know how to convert 2.5 seconds into DIN or NET or gross hp, but I'm guessing it's a lot!
To be fair however, a small block Chevy swap is not something I'd really be interested in for my jag. Maybe a Chevy V8 that is less than 30 years old, or a Tesla something, or who knows?
The point of this thread was I thought it was interesting that an engine swapped vehicle sold for so much more than a similar stock vehicle. There are a few other cases like this (see FM miatas, for example), but neither the i6 or the V8 jag will be "fast" by today's standards, which is absolutely untrue of the FM miatas. So I find it interesting.
Look at the Chevy weight. Then look at the Jaguar weight
The Jag weighs 4200+ pounds. But really the Kag will do 140 mph with the 4.2 what will the Chevy do? Horses for courses
frenchyd said:In reply to bobzilla :
Well Bobzilla. The most common 350 made 160 net horsepower
Yes some chevys 350's made more.
but most didn't.
Actually most 350s made over 160 hp. Those around that number were primarily the truck engines. 1975 again was the worst at 140 hp net with 2 barrel and 150 hp net 4 barrel.after that they stopped using the 2 barrel 350 replaced by the 305. Then the 350 was making atleast 165 hp at a minimum. Consider that gm made lots of 305 engines around 160 or more horsepower. Now these engines all had very mild cams for work etc and the torque would come in around 2000 to 2400 rpm at max.
In reply to MotorsportsGordon :
The gm tbi 350 that dominated trucks and cars from 1986-1995 made 195-205. The vortec 5.7 made 255 from 96-2012(in medium duty trucks past 1999). That 160 was not the most popular 350 (and you already know that) and was from an era where nothing made power.
bobzilla said:In reply to MotorsportsGordon :
The gm tbi 350 that dominated trucks and cars from 1986-1995 made 195-205. The vortec 5.7 made 255 from 96-2012(in medium duty trucks past 1999). That 160 was not the most popular 350 (and you already know that) and was from an era where nothing made power.
Yup my dads 94 gmc had the 5.7 tbi with 210 hp. All the b body 350s made atleast 185 hp. Every 350 z28 made over 160 hp. 170 was the lowest it ever made. Every 350 corvette ever made had over 160 hp. 1975 it was 165 hp then up to 180 in 1976.
Frenchie brags about his old GM truck that went like 400k miles with zero repairs. It had more than 160 hp.
In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :
Honestly if I thought the Chevy engine was a better deal I'd put a Chevy engine in.
I'm sure you've all torn apart and rebuilt a lot of Chevy's like I have. Some of them headed for the race track. Because that's what I do.
Now everyone who has pulled apart V12's. And raced Jaguar engines. Please raise your hand.
Don't be shy.
Anybody ?
Anybody at all?
Before you judge you should at least be familiar, shouldn't you?
My most relevant experience was vintage race week in the Bahama's in1986.
There were 3 real competitors in group 3
World famous Sir Stirling Moss winner of Countless Grand Prix races, LeMans and just about every major sports car race.
Driving factory prepared Aston Martin DBR 2 which according to rumor had been specially upgraded to enhance Henry Ford to buy the Aston Martin Factory. Yes Henry Ford Grandson of The Henry Ford. Came to the Bahamas With his checkbook.
Then there was Steve Kline. Owner of the only Chevy dealership in Minneapolis. Steve Kline was a experienced SCCA racer with access to all the GM go fast parts. In addition to massive Chevy sales. They were the biggest Corvette dealer in the Midwest. Steve also owned the 2nd (of 3) Echidna. Devin body 1955 Chevy frame ( shortened) Chevy engine etc. That his mechanics had been "enhancing" far beyond its original specifications for decades.
He came with 2 spare engines 2 spare gearboxes, 2 spare rear ends. Plus plenty of other spares He returned with 3 broken spare engines having bought one after the 3 others had, errrr, taken vacation? The price paid for the 3rd spare? A reported $22,000 but he needed it for the last race of the event.
Then there was me. I was Carl Larson's hired wrench and race car preparer. (DeMar mk2 ) Devin body, tube frame. Jaguar IRS) Chevy engine ( 430 cu in)Hilborn Fuel injection. He paid my entry fee and bought us ( my late wife and I ) dinner each night. Oh I neglected to mention I drove the car pulling the 28' trailer there and back.
I had $300 in my wife's purse. And my Black Jack Special. ( Jaguar )
Carl Larson was entered but never could keep up. When I drove it. It always won but
Lap by lap is boring.
But at the start. Steve Kline jumped it. -•••••• by a lot!
I was right behind Kline hoping to get a shot. Moss was on the outside but he really got snookered.
The three of us battled for 3 laps inches apart but they both had more power than I did. I was just geared better than either. So in the tight corners I could hold my own or put a nose ahead they'd open and then I'd come flying in dancing on the absolute edge of traction out braking both of them. Setting myself up.
3rd lap turn 4 Steve Kline took an inside line but cut across the sandy corner throwing sand all over the track Moss was way wide and past the sand except for me. That was the corner I was set up for . Instead of second gear I went through in 3rd 20 mph on both of them Well except for that sand. Luckily that led to the widest road in the Bahamas and I used every inch and about 2 feet of sand to bring it under control. By the time I did they were both too far in front for me to catch up. It's a great video they actually replayed it 2 times when it was shown on TV
I've still got it and if someone can show me how to copy it I'll gladly show it.
I got a few 2nds and a couple of 3rds for the 10 days, scored real high in the Concours and took one 1st in the autocross. I was hoping for a 3rd when trophies were handed out and sad when my name wasn't called.
Except they called me for 2nd with Moss first ( naturally )
Moss may have paid me the greatest compliment of my life when He said " I was really worried when they won the first race and when the amateurs drive like Pros, it's time for the pros to drive like professionals"
So Henry Ford bought Aston Martin. Steve Kline loaded the pieces of the Echidna up. I drove the DeMar and Black Jack home Just as nice as they were when they arrived.
3 Chevy engines2 transmissions and a rear end prepared by professional mechanics
Nothing broken on the DeMar or the Black Jack
Oh look another long diatribe about not the topic or what we've been discussing.
I think we all know how this goes. I'm out.
In reply to bobzilla :
Too bad you didn't read it. It's directly relevant.
In 10 days 3 Chevy engines. 0 Aston Martin 0 Jaguar.
Mind you those were the newest and best Chevy engines st the time.
In reply to frenchyd :
That sounds amazing. I would love to have seen it.
I don't think anyone here is judging the jaguar powerplant in terms of it's racing potential. Nor is anyone judging your skills as a builder or driver.
When it comes to what is "better", I think of that quote about opinions and belly buttons. Everybody has one.
Can we get an ignore feature on this forum? I've got frenchy's spiel memorised , and he keeps repeating the same tired old inaccurate 'facts'.
No one today would consider swapping a Jag with a Chevy v8 and then put a 160hp variant of a 350 in. The idea is ludicrous, and it needs to stop getting repeated ad nauseum.
This thread makes me want to put an LS3 (also a Chevy small block!) in an old Jag.
In reply to Nathan JansenvanDoorn :
We have one. It's called scrolling. As in scroll on past his posts without reading them.
Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to frenchyd :
That sounds amazing. I would love to have seen it.
I don't think anyone here is judging the jaguar powerplant in terms of it's racing potential. Nor is anyone judging your skills as a builder or driver.
When it comes to what is "better", I think of that quote about opinions and belly buttons. Everybody has one.
That's absolutely right. I keep forgetting most people rarely ever use the full potential of a car. Speed limits and a reasonable concern about safety. When they do put a boot in it. It's typically for a few seconds in a street corner drag, not flat out fighting wind resistance.
Yet places in Europe would quickly show the limits of a Chevy.
Plus, frankly most people are numb in the butt department. In line sixes and V12's are relatively vibration free.
While rubber motor mounts and a comfortable seat insulate people from the worst effects of a V8. And frankly growing up feeling that vibration in everything they drive and ride in. They really can't appreciate the difference.
V8's are normal so everything about a V8 is normal. Really can't fault them for that.
Nathan JansenvanDoorn said:Can we get an ignore feature on this forum? I've got frenchy's spiel memorised , and he keeps repeating the same tired old inaccurate 'facts'.
No one today would consider swapping a Jag with a Chevy v8 and then put a 160hp variant of a 350 in. The idea is ludicrous, and it needs to stop getting repeated ad nauseum.
This thread makes me want to put an LS3 (also a Chevy small block!) in an old Jag.
Do whatever you want to do. It's your car. Swapping one to show someone who doesn't care really would be a poor waste of your time though.
In reply to frenchyd :
You misunderstood if you think I want to do it for anyone else.
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