E46 M3 vs. E39 M5 vs. Cayman

It's no secret that I'm seeking to replace two cars with one. This opens the door to many options. I had been thinking about a used Cayman because I'm a Porsche guy at heart.

But yesterday, while following an E46 M3, my three year old car enthusiast daughter pointed and said "Porsche". After correcting her and explaining, at length, the history of BMW, I started thinking about that car as an alternative to the Cayman, which are (gasp!) more expensive than I feel they should be for the three year old examples that I have been looking at.

Which also brought to mind the E39 M5. I've always loved the M3 and M5, but never looked closely enough to know exactly what I should be looking for.

'Esplain me BMW shopping...

I have never looked into the E46 or E39s.. I can say this.. the E46 M3 is a totally bitchin car.. and the M5 is just wonderful. It might not have the reflexes of the smaller 3er.. but it gobbles miles at an ungodly rate and does not have to slow for the occasional corner.

Like all BMWs.. check the suspension bushings and the cooling system

Ok, the pocket guide:

• E46 M3: The first real GT size/version of the 3 Series. Before that the E30 M3 was born of motorsport and the E36 M3 was an attempt to civilize the E30 without losing raw feel. It is very fast, capable and comfortable. It eats up highway, road course and valet parking. The best all-around car since the E36 M3.
• E39 M5: The E46 M3s porkier brother. It is brutally fast for a big sedan, dances well for a big sedan, etc... notice the caveat "Big Sedan". The E46 M3 will eat it's lunch at every task except impressing golf buddies and coddling back seat passengers. It is really just a bigger compromise of sport vs luxury.
• Cayman: The one you should buy if you don't need a real trunk or back seat. It is more satisfying to drive than either BMW although you will still not catch a well driven E46 M3 unless you get the S and put DOT race tires on it.

Oh, something I actually know a little about! :D My most recent car change was to sell my 951 and buy an E46 M3. I'm a BMW guy at heart you see... The E46 M3 is in my opinion the best dual-purpose car ever. It's totally happy to tool around town at low revs and rides comfortably doing it. Then when the road opens up wind that straight six out to the 8k limiter and watch the scenery turn into a blur very quickly. When the road turns this car does so very well too. Unlike the E36 the interiors generally hold up well. It's heavier than the E36 but much stiffer. My car has every option except the power rear sunshade. Navigation, bluetooth, aftermarket iPod integration, power adjustable seats including side bolsters, etc. It's a nice place to spend time.

There are two big scary problems - rear subframes and VANOS failures. The rear subframe mount points on the body can tear. A class action lawsuit led to a settlement where BMW inspected the cars and if cracks were found repaired them. Turner sells a weld in reinforcement kit that fixes the problem permanently, but requires dropping the rear subframe to do it, not a small task.

VANOS is BMWs variable cam timing system, run off high pressure oil. The M3 has a separate high pressure oil pump to run the VANOS. There are two issues - the bolts holding the intake cam to the system can back out slightly and then break and the tabs on the exhaust cam sprocket that engage the VANOS system can break. Neither one will kill the car but a replacement VANOS isn't cheap. There's no real way to change the VANOS bolts for the updated version without special tIming tools. Also, the VANOS oil seals can fail and leak - there are upgraded replacements available.

The S-series motors in the M cars are more maintenance intensive than their lesser counterparts in that they have solid lifters and require them to be adjusted every 30k miles or so.

Suspension bushings are 50k or so wear items and if neglected can lead to severe tire wear and lousy handling (yeah, duh). Rear trailing arm bushings are often upgraded to poly. Front control arm bushings are also often poly upgrades. I was pleased to find both under my car yesterday.

I highly recommend a test drive to see if the E46 M3 is for you. The last year of the E46 M3 was 2006. Good condition relatively low mile examples are high 20s to mid 30s. My 97k mile 2002 with a replacement motor at 27k miles and a new set of rod bearings after that was 16k at a local dealer. Pricing can vary regionally quite a bit.

Keith will have to comment on the M5.

pigeon wrote: My 97k mile 2002 with a replacement motor at 27k miles and a new set of rod bearings after that was 16k at a local dealer.

That's a scary paragraph right there.

If you get an E46 just make sure it's an 04 and up I think. Earlier models had a tendency to break stuff when winding up to 8000rpm and if taken to a dealer at the time they would perform a "recall" to drop the rev limit down to the mid 7000 range. ConRod problems I believe.

Woody wrote:

pigeon wrote: My 97k mile 2002 with a replacement motor at 27k miles and a new set of rod bearings after that was 16k at a local dealer.

That's a scary paragraph right there.

For 2002 models BMW changes engine bearing suppliers. Something got lost in the translation somewhere and the bearings were just slightly off size, leading to a lot of blown motors and a recall for bearing replacement. BMW extended the engine warranty on all '02 M3s to 6 years/100k miles. The PO of my car blew her motor before the recall and had the recall done on motor #2. It's a non-issue at this point.

I have a 2003 M5 with 90k miles. It's stock, other than a Dinan exhaust. I've owned it for about 6 months. It's incredibly fun to drive, sounds like a highbrow stock car (in a good way) and looks gorgeous.

From there, things go downhill. Even when trying to go easy, it sucks down fuel like there's a hole in the bottom of the tank. And, maybe I'm just having bad luck, but, even after buying a 1 owner car with very good maintenance, it's been in the shop a ton(!). And the rumor about the price of parts is true. For instance, my car needed a new driveshaft. It was over $900. And that's with my mechanic giving me a break. It has 2 washer reservoirs (headlights and windshield). Both pumps failed and had to be replaced. Not cheap. And, after ~1 month of ownership, the radiator split and almost cooked the motor. Luckily I got it shut down in time to save it. The A/C is having issues and my mechanic thinks it is the evaporator. Guess how many hours it takes just to get to that? Was your answer 12?!? I could go on.

The Cayman is starting to sound like a bargain.

I live on a road with five houses and two of my neighbors have A6 4.2s...

Drive an A6 back to back with any of the cars being considered in this thread and you will know why it wasn't included in the OP. The M5 is a fab car if you plan to regularly have guests in the back seat. Otherwise, the M3 is the car you want, and stick with the 6-speed (the new M3's dual clutch transmissions are simply sublime, while the older SMG's are simply subpar). I have yet to drive a Cayman S, but I want to - but they're a whole lot more money and offer much less utility.

Datsun1500 wrote: Audi A6 with the 4.2 is worth a look/drive also AWD sedan with 350 HP is a great combo.

Trying to make the Cayman look like the deal of the century?

I have an E39 530. No M5, but it is really a sedan. Sporty yes, but not a sports car by any means. Do you need back seats? Do you need a 4 adults size car? If so and you want it sport then the E39 M5 is great car. If you want sports car first then don't do the E39.

My E39 is a daily driver and I love the nicely balanced chassis. The 3.0L is not hugely powerful, but plenty for a daily driver and still gets me 28-29 mph on the hwy. I gor the 2002 E39 back in 2005 and it is now at 128k. I have a 944 Turbo S if I want a proper sports car. I have had the 944 since 1997 may one day replace it with a Cayman. Not sure however.

I think I'd have to drive the m3 and cayman as close to back to back as I could muster. The only love I can think of for a newer m5 is engine swap into something else. I really have liked all the bmws I've had (on number 5). Seems like the newer bmws are a fair bit more portly than they used to be. Even with buckets of power, it's not the same as tossing around a light car. Cayman is something like 450 lbs lighter than the m3.

I've had an E46 M3 and it is a very nice car. Mine was mostly trouble free, even though it was a (gasp!) 2002! BMW had replaced the rod bearings for the 1st owner and the car was fine.

Vanos units can't be rebuilt and they cost close to $2000. Rear subframes are ripping, Turner and a few others have kits, but as mentioned, installation isn't trivial.

Other than that, they're nice cars and actually have a usable back seat.

Do you need a four door? Do you need a back seat? I've driven a few Cayman S's and I'm enamored with them. If I could get away with a 2 seater, that's the car I'd buy...

Ive had an 05 e46 M3 for about 3 years now. Its a very comfortable highway car, great for chewing up the miles. The backseat is quite roomy, and the principal reason I got the M3 over a Cayman. When we found out that our son was on the way, I thought "bye bye M3", but in fact the back seat is just right in terms of size etc. for a car seat and gear, without feeling like the car is huge. (You can also fit 3 track wheel/tires in the back seat.) Ive had several e30s over the years, a e28 535 and an e34 535. The m3's back seat is bigger than the e30s, seems only slightly smaller than the 5ers, but doesnt' feel huge when you're driving it. (The M3 also has about 25 track days on it, and has been good fun.)

Below 3500 RPM the car is pretty docile, at 4000 rpm it starts making power. Civilized to drive, until you want to make noise. Discipline = decent hwy mileage...Fun means lower hwy mileage.

Once further editorial comment: M3forum.net can be a pretty good resource, there is a fair bit of real, honest knowledge on there. HOWEVER, as you will see from that board, as prices for e46s have fallen they have been purchased by a growing number of people who can pay the up front price but may not necessarily have the skill/inclination (or, lacking those two, the $) to maintain the car. As a result, there are a lot of cars out there that have been "ridden hard and put away wet". Beware such cars. madrussian.net is also a good resource.

Dr. Vanos rebuilds S54 VANOS for $1200. Still not cheap...

On my first B and not a M model either (X3 3.0i 6 speed) so I am new,but have seat time in the E46 M3 (SMG convertable and 6 speed Coupe) as well as the M5 (6 speed).

I have always loved the M5, between the two it is like the Sophia Loren, not trendy, not the lightest, but beauty and class beyond compare. I have stalked the M5 for as long as they have been around.

The M3 always seemed more boyish, less tame. Think Lindsey Lohan before jail time. Addictive, wild, trouble, and everyone looked at her, but you know it's not a long term relationship. Think of a great waste of time.

My money M5, but for hooligan fun, the M3 does it with style.

P.S. How short are you? I turn a M3 into a 3 seater (Driver's side 1 person, passenger side 2.)

I have never driven a Cayman. Someone please send me one so I can post meaningful information

WRT to the 3 vs the 5: we looked at the E46 M3 instead of the E39 M5. The M5 just felt more special, and we were looking for a "real car" instead of a sports car. It's a great way to evaporate long distances. You can move at ridiculous velocities four-up in comfort. And every once in a while I'll let it loose in the city - it would be a great getaway car, with shocking speed. But not a Sports Car. On our kart track, it feels big. Lots of fun to come off corners with the rear tires smoking, but it's really not intended for those tight quarters.

The M5 forum is not DIY friendly. It's still inhabited by people who paid ridiculous amounts of cash for their cars and treat them as such. That's great - and it bodes well for most M5s - but it also means it can be difficult to find good help in diagnosing and fixing the cars.

joepaluch wrote: I have an E39 530. No M5, but it is really a sedan. Sporty yes, but not a sports car by any means.

FWIW, don't judge the M5 by any other E39. Everything up to and including a 540 with any kind of sport package feels like a soft wallowy barge. The M5 is on a different planet. It doesn't drive small but dear lord, is it ever tight. I would personally take a well sorted E39 M5 over the V10 M5/M6.

Just try it, you will probably go home with it... I know it's taster's choice but the power delivery of the S62 will impress any muscle car guy. You need to rev the piss out of the M3 for it to feel fast, kind of like the V10 - yeah it pulls but its strength is how long it pulls, not how hard. The V8 runs out of breath sooner but it feels so much more violent than either of the other two that you might not care that it's not actually faster. And speaking of which, it's only a little bit slower than the V10 in the double digit speeds, and depending on driver, should edge out the M3 pretty much at any speed in a straight line, or at the very least keep up.

The way I personally see it, the M3 is too much of a compromise. The E30 M3 sacrificed all for sportiness. The E38 750 sacrificed all for luxury. The E46 M3 sacrifices some room for some weight, some comfort for some sportiness, some economy for some power... but this results in a car that is quite adequate for a lot of things but it's not excellent at anything. It's too heavy and underpowered to be truly fast like a C5+ vette, yet it's too small and harsh to be a truly comfortable cruiser like an E39.

The M5 on the other hand, doesn't pretend to be an every day racecar. It's a luxury sedan, and it drives, feels and sounds every bit the part. But it also has a tightened suspension, enough stop and wicked go to be very sharp and tons of fun should you wish to throw it around.

Sorry to offend anyone's taste, I concede that this is all just opinion and I could well be "wrong". But that's how I see it.

Re the M5 - give yourself 9 minutes and enjoy this: The Hire - Star

On the other hand you could consider the E46 M3 to be an excellent all-rounder, the best sports sedan of its generation.
In The World.

pigeon wrote: Re the M5 - give yourself 9 minutes and enjoy this: The Hire - Star

It also does this faster than the E46 M3 (8:16 vs 8:22):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtDwEmwWd4M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqP9xnwBR8A

Damn you, pigeon. I was just looking for a link to that video to put in this thread and you went and beat me to it.

BigD wrote:

joepaluch wrote: I have an E39 530. No M5, but it is really a sedan. Sporty yes, but not a sports car by any means.

FWIW, don't judge the M5 by any other E39. Everything up to and including a 540 with any kind of sport package feels like a soft wallowy barge. The M5 is on a different planet.

This is true. I had a chance to spend significant time in an E39 540i Sport 6-speed before driving the M5. The 540i was deemed an "old man's car" by my wife, who loves her M5.