Let's assume you were specifying a new version of F5000. What engine would you think is the 2013 version of the 305 pushrod V8 from 1965? (God, that's almost 50 years....) I guess the basic criteria are that it's got to be affordable, capable of about 500 hp with some work and common as dirt.
3 liter pushrod or DOHC V6? 2 liter 4?
Oh come on. 4.8 LS!
It would be kind of cool to have a 'spec' series around the 4.8. Bore and stroke must remain. Stock heads. 2500 lbs. Safety. Other than that, it's all free.
Agreed. Off the shelf LS of some type, "sealed" so as to be basically a spec engine. Such an engine would be so under-stressed in that application it probably wouldn't need anything other than basic service for years. Combined with open headers and it would sound fantastic and be fast as hell. The transaxle would probably cost more to source.
While I can empathize with the appeal of a low-cost "spec" engine, I think part of the reason Indy Car is struggling so badly to build a fan base is the fact that it's a spec series. I think what would be needed would be the ability of the teams to work on their engines, somewhat similar to what NASCAR does but with a much smaller, lighter and compact unit. Otherwise you might as well just specify engine rules identical to NASCAR and take advantage of the efficiencies of scale.
There's a difference between a spec engine and a spec car. The cars are boring because they look identical, not because they act identical. OK, some of it is because they act identical.
Incidentally, I think your suggestion of NASCAR engines in open wheel cars is fantastic. :)
mazdeuce wrote: Incidentally, I think your suggestion of NASCAR engines in open wheel cars is fantastic. :)
Hmm... an idea with potential. I was thinking more along the lines of an amateur series, but for a more pro-oriented series you're probably right.
500 HP sealed factory "crate" engines, a product available from GM, Ford and Chrysler in the sub-$5K range, w/ rev limiters set to a "reasonable" number they could last a couple seasons before a rebuild.
These "factory hot rod" engines are very popular with the street rod crowd, and IIRC have some really good warranties (which I know would be null and void once installed into a race car, but could be seen as a sign of durability)
Any of the somewhat modern ~5 liter V8s will meet that criteria and last a long time with a reasonable redline.
I'd go with a roughly 3.5 liter V6. That would be a pretty inclusive series. I can't think of an automaker with a North American presence that doesn't have a V6 approximately that size.
I'll take one of those sub-$5k 500 hp engines right now, please 
Love the NASCAR idea.
BAMF wrote: I'd go with a roughly 3.5 liter V6. That would be a pretty inclusive series. I can't think of an automaker with a North American presence that doesn't have a V6 approximately that size.
Of those eligible engines which would you regard as the best package for power/weight/reliability?
stroker wrote: While I can empathize with the appeal of a low-cost "spec" engine, I think part of the reason Indy Car is struggling so badly to build a fan base is the fact that it's a spec series. I think what would be needed would be the ability of the teams to work on their engines, somewhat similar to what NASCAR does but with a much smaller, lighter and compact unit. Otherwise you might as well just specify engine rules identical to NASCAR and take advantage of the efficiencies of scale.
IIRC Indy Car uses a spec chassis, but currently Chevy and Honda provide engines.
Joe Gearin wrote:stroker wrote: While I can empathize with the appeal of a low-cost "spec" engine, I think part of the reason Indy Car is struggling so badly to build a fan base is the fact that it's a spec series. I think what would be needed would be the ability of the teams to work on their engines, somewhat similar to what NASCAR does but with a much smaller, lighter and compact unit. Otherwise you might as well just specify engine rules identical to NASCAR and take advantage of the efficiencies of scale.IIRC Indy Car uses a spec chassis, but currently Chevy and Honda provide engines.
And had Lotus to start with too, but they were so far off the pace they got booted off track at Indy for being a danger then dropped out.
If you look at the plan for Indy cars over the next few years you'll see that in 2015 there will be engine manufacturer specific body work for road/street as well as super speedways. That way a Honda will look different from a Chevy. I don't think the spec aspect is hurting Indy cars right now. I think it's years and years of infighting that killed it. Right now the cars are good, there's a good engine manufacturer fight and the racing is excellent. But, the 10,000lb gorilla called NASCAR has sucked up the advertising, air time and persuaded people that 200 lead changes per race is excitement, yawn. I’d rather see one well great chase (Alonso chasing down LCH yesterday) than 20 boring position changes as the cars go round at 200.1mph vs. 200.7mph. Indy car is now fighting for an already crowded market place in terms of advertising $$"s and fans who already have plenty of other motorsport to suck up their Sunday afternoons.
Back to F5000. I think for the historical tie in, the LS or any V8 would be perfect. A spec engine and trans combo that could be bought for $25-35k would be the bargain of the century. Maybe get a company to build a spec carbon tub that people could develop their own body work for would be the way to go. That way you have a proven, crash tested modern safe tub for the drivers. Even keeping ovals out of the equation a 500hp racing car weighing less than 1,500 lb's full of fuel and driver is a wickedly fast and potentially deadly machine. Tube frame cars built by guys in their sheds isn't going to be a good idea for an all-out race series. I wish someone would do this, keeping flat bottoms, limited wing area, no blown diffusers. Keep the aero grip down, iron not carbon brakes (spec as well?) It could be a great low cost series.
Adrian_Thompson wrote: Maybe get a company to build a spec carbon tub that people could develop their own body work for would be the way to go. That way you have a proven, crash tested modern safe tub for the drivers. Even keeping ovals out of the equation a 500hp racing car weighing less than 1,500 lb's full of fuel and driver is a wickedly fast and potentially deadly machine.
I like that - a spec tub but leave aero design somewhat open. Granted, the difficulty there is the teams with deep pockets can buy more wind-tunnel time.
One side effect of using an OTS V8 would be in the chassis design, which would definitly end up being more "old-school" vs. modern open wheel cars since the engine has been a stressed member of the chassis for quite some time. Whether this is good or bad would be debatable.
Ian F wrote: One side effect of using an OTS V8 would be in the chassis design, which would definitly end up being more "old-school" vs. modern open wheel cars since the engine has been a stressed member of the chassis for quite some time. Whether this is good or bad would be debatable.
I wonder if a modern LSx could be a 'semi' stressed member. The Buick V6's were used in Indy lights and Indy cars in the 80's, weren't they used as a stressed member or did they have a frame around them. I think SBC were still used by some Indy teams in the 80's I recall Rahal using an NA SBC for road courses in the early 80's as it had better response and torque than the more powerful turbo Cossie they used on the speedways.
Can someone who actually knows something chime in to correct my half remembered half-truths with some facts before I mislead people please?
Adrian_Thompson wrote: I don't think the spec aspect is hurting Indy cars right now.
Sample size of one: it's made me lose interest. I turned on the 500 for a few minutes and all the identical cars just put me to sleep.
I'm pretty sure that Yunick was using the old SBC as a stressed member at Indy in the 80's. Maybe they could use the iron blocks if required. Seems like GM could determine it pretty easily if the right engineers were asked and allowed to share.
Keith Tanner wrote:Adrian_Thompson wrote: I don't think the spec aspect is hurting Indy cars right now.Sample size of one: it's made me lose interest. I turned on the 500 for a few minutes and all the identical cars just put me to sleep. I'm pretty sure that Yunick was using the old SBC as a stressed member at Indy in the 80's. Maybe they could use the iron blocks if required. Seems like GM could determine it pretty easily if the right engineers were asked and allowed to share.
Sample size of one on one race. I know 'The' Indy 500 is the crown jewl, but go fast turn left repeat doens't appeal to me. Try watching one of the road or street races and get back to me. I watch all the left turn right turn stuff but just can't muster the interest in the roundy roundy.
Forget modern Indy cars, everyone else except me seems to have. Back to the F5000 idea.
I think it's a great idea. Here's a way to get it started. Talk to your organization de Jour (SsillyCCA, NASA, HSA whoever) and get them to start a series. Any single seater (f1, Indy, Indy lights, Formula Renault 3.5 etc) with a restrictor to cap it at say 400hp OR the spec 500hp LSx and manual transaxle with limited aero. You get a power advantage, but limited aero, slower gear changes, high CofG etc. Heck, there are already some late model Single seaters racing in some of the historic series, just let the 'New and shiny F5000's' join in as a place to start.
Heck, as soon as I win a Powerball over $500mil I’ll head over to England and commission the spec carbon tub for everyone to use and get 10 built for people to buy from me
SsillyCCA!
that's awesome.
Ive been wading through there rulebooks for the last couple of months, and I must admit this is the biggest train wreck I've ever seen.
It's like they went out and tried to create a rulebook that's one purpose was to discourage new members.
There are four things that are expensive in a race car over a season.
The tires, the collision parts, the gearbox, and the engine - in that order, unless you've got a series where there's a big advantage for extra power, or have tightly-constrained aero rules that make every last little piece of the car critically important.
The smaller and lighter this car is, the less expensive the series will be, because you can use smaller tires and fewer sets of them. It'll also take less power to make them go fast. Adding power with a bigger engine (either physically larger or larger-displacement) would be cheap except that it requires either a more expensive, heavier gearbox or more wear on the existing gearbox.
What we need is one open-wheel car class that bridges the entire gap between karts on one end and IndyCars/WoO sprinters on the other. It needs to run Formula Atlantic laptimes for a Formula Ford price. This gets rid of the endless "ladder to nowhere" of series that ensure that the ability to raise money trumps the ability to develop a car to make it go fast and then win races with it.
I suggest starting with a 900-lb minimum weight including driver, a 180-horsepower 2-cylinder 2-stroke snowmobile engine, a spec driver cell to allow for economies of scale and ensure a minimum level of driver protection, a set of tires that'll last all weekend with 2000 lbs of normal load on them, and unlimited ground effect tunnels with pine plywood skirts. This will lead to utterly ridiculous performance on tighter circuits - and safety problems that are obviously bad enough on any big oval that no promoter will ever get a race on anything longer than a nearly flat mile. They'll be acceptable on shorter tracks, on dirt, or on road courses with runoff as the limited kinetic energy of a car that light with that much aero surface area won't allow it to fly as far as a bigger one.
chaparral wrote: I suggest starting with a 900-lb minimum weight including driver, a 180-horsepower 2-cylinder 2-stroke snowmobile engine, a spec driver cell to allow for economies of scale and ensure a minimum level of driver protection, a set of tires that'll last all weekend with 2000 lbs of normal load on them, and unlimited ground effect tunnels with pine plywood skirts. This will lead to utterly ridiculous performance on tighter circuits - and safety problems that are obviously bad enough on any big oval that no promoter will ever get a race on anything longer than a nearly flat mile. They'll be acceptable on shorter tracks, on dirt, or on road courses with runoff as the limited kinetic energy of a car that light with that much aero surface area won't allow it to fly as far as a bigger one.
The problem with that, while a laudable goal is that it's still just another feeder series. I think what the OP's intent was to talk about a series that captures the drama, visual and auditory appeal of the F5000 cars. Big, loud in your face bruisers, but brought up to modern specs. I bet you'll find in any of the series modern open wheel series the # 1 expense is not tires it's the gazillion hours spent honing the spec cars to extract the last 1/1,000,000,000,000,000,000 of a second from them. Testing testing more testing. Measuring, refining, adjusting etc. Have you seen the # of people working on an Indy lights car or similar.
Get rid of as much aero as possible. Give it a big understressed if heavy engine and gearbox and have fun. The best way to keep costs down is to not try and bin it as a feeder series to Indy, F1 etc. Make it a gentleman’s series concentrate on the spectacle not the last millisecond of performance.
Honestly, what would get you to the track with your friends? Another small light 200ish hp series pulling 50gs in the corners and the ability to transition from left to right faster than any mortal could possibly do. Or would you rather see big loud cars sliding around oversteering etc etc.
Adrian_Thompson wrote: I think it's a great idea. Here's a way to get it started. Talk to your organization de Jour (SsillyCCA, NASA, HSA whoever) and get them to start a series. Any single seater (f1, Indy, Indy lights, Formula Renault 3.5 etc) with a restrictor to cap it at say 400hp OR the spec 500hp LSx and manual transaxle with limited aero. You get a power advantage, but limited aero, slower gear changes, high CofG etc. Heck, there are already some late model Single seaters racing in some of the historic series, just let the 'New and shiny F5000's' join in as a place to start.
Whle I embrace carbon as a great material for single seat tub safety, it's hardly the choice of 'run whatcha brung' racing. To get the thing started you need to make it technologically achievable (steel tube/aluminum monocoque with fiberglass bodies) with relatively low power (sub 500hp), little (or very simple) aero and stupid-cheap affordability. That's what you'd have to do for the first year or two until you've got the privateer participant base built up. It wouldn't be necessary to outlaw modern tubs, just equalize the field with engine/aero/tire restrictions.
Get rid of as much aero as possible. Give it a big understressed if heavy engine and gearbox and have fun. The best way to keep costs down is to not try and bin it as a feeder series to Indy, F1 etc. Make it a gentleman’s series concentrate on the spectacle not the last millisecond of performance.
You and I are on the same page. We could start a thread about this alone.
Basically, we're talking about an open wheel version of a Daytona Prototype, aren't we? Rev limited V8, spec driver's cell, limited aero,the right noise, and sideways driving. I'll go watch that.
DeadSkunk wrote: Basically, we're talking about an open wheel version of a Daytona Prototype, aren't we? Rev limited V8, spec driver's cell, limited aero,the right noise, and sideways driving. I'll go watch that.
Yup, and you konw what, for all the whiners who complain DP's ain't as cool as ALMS P1 and P2 cars, while they are right, go watch a DP race. It's fun, spectacular with full grids as it's CHEAP
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