adam525i
adam525i Dork
11/22/21 8:08 a.m.
Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to alfadriver :

Again, I don't think you comprehend this, but the DRS system is owned, supplied, and operated by the FIA, not the teams. 

Since this got dragged back up again I'm wondering where you are finding this?

Obviously all of the detection side and the signals going to the FIA supplied McLaren ECU that all the cars run is but from there all I can find is that the rest of the system is specific to the individual teams (they may use the same components from the same suppliers but that isn't mandated from what I have read). 

New York Nick
New York Nick HalfDork
11/22/21 11:10 a.m.

I haven't seen any talk of scenarios yet for season points.

With 2 races to go there are 8 points difference. If Hamilton wins both he wins, if Max wins one and finishes second in one he wins, when are the big scenario talks going to start? Is that after Saudi?

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
11/22/21 11:33 a.m.

In reply to New York Nick :

Bottas needs to stick his nose into that conversation, otherwise the haters will have more reason to celebrate his leaving.  Even being 3rd to prevent Max from pitting for the PAT.

Where the nerves come out is what happens in the first corner of the last race if the point difference is in Max's favor.  Again Valtteri needs to bring his racedriver back out again.

(and seeing the issues with the dirty side, I wonder how the start would have gone with Max 2 and Valtteri 3....  the way it happened makes one very much think Max would have either ended up 3rd or crashed into Bottas)

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/22/21 11:57 a.m.

Yeah, the second drivers are going to have to work hard to spoil the party for the other team's champion ship rival. The fastest lap point has proven to be pretty darn interesting as well.

If it turns into a 1996 Schumi scenario again (championship leader is caught clearly trying to crash his rival), how do you think the FIA will go? It's one thing to remove the second place driver from the championship standings, what if Schumi was/Max is successful? Would they have the nerve to take away the championship?

Max with nothing to lose and everything to gain has the potential to be a very aggressive driver, especially if he feels the FIA has his back no matter what he does.

New York Nick
New York Nick HalfDork
11/22/21 12:06 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I agree, interesting though is I don't see either #2 beating Max or Lewis so without crashes you have 1-2 for those two no matter what. If Lewis wins SA and gets fastest lap we go to Abu Dhabi tied (assuming Max is second). Who has the edge in that case, like if there is a double crash out? I am just interested in the math to see who needs what and I am surprised that the talking heads aren't pouring out the what if's for who wins.

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr PowerDork
11/22/21 12:16 p.m.

If it's tied, it goes to max on number of wins iirc.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/22/21 12:16 p.m.

If the two drivers are tied for points, the championship leader is the one with the most wins - Max.

Both Perez and Bottas are capable of winning races, but it usually requires something to happen to one or both of the Max/Lewis duo. Still, there's the potential for one of them to stick their nose in. It's a lot more likely than someone like Ricciardo getting in the way, unfortunately.

New York Nick
New York Nick HalfDork
11/22/21 12:22 p.m.

I just checked 2021, Max has finished 1-2 in every race he finished except Hungary where he finished 9th. Lewis is a little less consistent but not by much, damn you "Magic switch".

 

Thanks for the win count info. Max is at 9 Lewis 7 so solid info from the hive.

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
11/22/21 12:29 p.m.

At least this year, we don't have to listen to the tortured math that tells us the second place driver can still win the championship, if he wins all five remaining races and takes four of the five  fastest laps and Lewis is abducted by aliens.

It got stupid last year.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/22/21 12:34 p.m.

It's funny that the championship could come down to a four way fight for fastest lap in the closing stages of the last race. Well, three way - Max, Lewis and "not Max or Lewis".

Note: this is not backed up by me doing math. But it could happen and it would be a hell of a finish.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
11/22/21 12:53 p.m.

Lewis needs to KISS, and just win.  Shoot for a tie in total wins, and the championship is yours.

BTW, saw an analysis of the speeds, and while RBR may see Mercedes gap them, they apparently are not noticing that they are falling back into the field WRT top speed.  So instead of fixing their own speed problem, they naturally blame the other team for going too fast.

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
11/22/21 12:55 p.m.

I really hope that Max doesn't win by less than the points difference awarded in the farce of a "race" at Spa.

 

New York Nick
New York Nick HalfDork
11/22/21 1:10 p.m.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

I really hope that Max doesn't win by less than the points difference awarded in the farce of a "race" at Spa.

 

I couldn't agree with this more. That was a joke.

accordionfolder
accordionfolder SuperDork
11/22/21 1:25 p.m.

I dunno, not really interested in arguing it, but chucking engines at the problem is rather distasteful IMO. Though I'm sure they'll account for it in the rules next year. The Honda built unit is an uber reliable engine apparently.

Kinda telling how good RBR and Max are this year is - without his flat tire at the Azerbaijan Grand Prix he would be miles ahead, ignoring the other more dramatic racing incidents.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/22/21 1:41 p.m.

https://www.f1-fansite.com/2021-f1-season/2021-used-f1-power-unit-elements/

The rules already take engine use into account. Max took a penalty for using more ICE units than allowed, as has Lewis. Lewis has used one ICE more than Max, but Max has taken penalties for using more turbos, MGU-H, MGU-K, batteries and controllers. I'm not sure that's Mercedes "chucking engines at the problem".

The only drivers that haven't taken penalties for changing the ICE are the drivers for the two Ferrari junior teams, which is interesting.

Max wouldn't be miles ahead if he'd avoided the flat, because Lewis was in third at the time. We can probably assume that Lewis wouldn't have crashed without the restart caused by Max's accident. So that would be an extra 10 points over Lewis. Certainly more comfort at this time of the season, but not a slam dunk.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
11/22/21 1:52 p.m.

In reply to accordionfolder :

Had Lewis fully taken advantage of the blow out, he'd be up by 17 right now.  So lets not pretend that the blow out cause max some horrible problem.   Then again, one can not discount the absolute luck he got in Russia, when Max was down on the points late in the race- but lucked out via the rain to grab 2nd.   Luck evens out over a season.

As for the outright speed thing- we need to let this season finish to decide which is better.  Up until now, Max has had more advantages, but it's been so close that it's hard to separate them.

accordionfolder
accordionfolder SuperDork
11/22/21 1:54 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Both points still stand - it's like giving a speeding ticket to Bezos or something. 

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
11/22/21 1:54 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

To add to the engine fluff- this past weekend, where Lewis was so fast, was an old engine.

For the most part, both RBR and Mercedes has taken equal penalties WRT power unit changes- 20.  Just did it in different ways.

accordionfolder
accordionfolder SuperDork
11/22/21 1:57 p.m.

"Had Lewis fully taken advantage of the blow out, he'd be up by 17 right now."

That's the point - Lewis made a huge mistake, Max's tire failed. 

I'm not a fan-boy to either of these drivers, I'm leaning more HAM right now, but could care less for the most part. 

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
11/22/21 1:59 p.m.
accordionfolder said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Both points still stand - it's like giving a speeding ticket to Bezos or something. 

That is incomplete.  It misses the rest of the powertrain, where RBR has made one more change than Mercedes.

This has more detail

Max has changed a lot more parts than Lewis has.  

accordionfolder
accordionfolder SuperDork
11/22/21 2:01 p.m.

In reply to alfadriver :

Lol, more incomplete.  I said changing "engines" - but again, not interested in arguing about it really.

rob_lewis
rob_lewis UltraDork
11/22/21 2:16 p.m.
accordionfolder said:

 but chucking engines at the problem is rather distasteful IMO.

Agreed from the cost perspective, but there are times where old F1 rules of "qualifying only" engines that blow up if you do more than 6 laps seem like they'd add quite a bit of fun.  But, the sponsorship dollars aren't there anymore to even the teams out more.

-Rob

accordionfolder
accordionfolder SuperDork
11/22/21 2:19 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

https://www.f1-fansite.com/2021-f1-season/2021-used-f1-power-unit-elements/

The rules already take engine use into account.

And I'm aware of this - I was implying that it will be stiffer (maybe it already is with spending caps?).

Also worth noting that, according to Honda, the engine changes were done because of crashes, not strategy (same with the other parts I believe?) - The dude from Honda seemed completely affronted by the concept of using engine changes in strategy (love that!). Though there's probably something in that to unpack about "not crashing" or making your parts more durable to crashes? I dunno, here's to hoping for an interesting end to the season!

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
11/22/21 3:00 p.m.
accordionfolder said:

And I'm aware of this - I was implying that it will be stiffer (maybe it already is with spending caps?).

It was stiffer just a couple years ago, they relaxed it because the Honda teams were starting at the back of the grid just about every other race.

Fundamentally this is why the "engine penalties should only apply to constructors' championship points" complaints are flawed.  IMHO the points system should be designed in such a way as to prevent the possibility of improving your chances in the driver's championship by throwing away points in the constructor's (or vice-versa).

I think I'm also not a fan of the point-for-fastest-lap for the same reason.  I don't like rules that reward asking a B driver to pit from a points-paying position (say 8th) in order to take the fast lap point away from the other team's A driver.

Advan046
Advan046 UltraDork
11/22/21 3:05 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

It's funny that the championship could come down to a four way fight for fastest lap in the closing stages of the last race. Well, three way - Max, Lewis and "not Max or Lewis".

Note: this is not backed up by me doing math. But it could happen and it would be a hell of a finish.

I am already imagining Tsunoda, Gasly, and Perez pitting for softs on the third to last lap for each of the last two races. LOL laugh

 

But Gasly doesn't back off and takes the point from Max! Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

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