Formula E: Who else is interested?

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2013/09/formula-e-intro/?viewall=true

Ruleset looks pretty promising. I'm not sure about the top speed limit but it might not get in the way too much considering it's all run on street circuits.

I actually like the engine sound better than the 2014 F1 engines:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lipRfJx0aHg

vs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8jz_Dgb8D4

This will come as no surprise, but I am VERY excited to see more EV racing getting not only lots of publicity, but LOTS more money than ever before. Great potential! (See what I did there?)

Bryce

I just wish they had introduced quick-change battery packs vs physically changing cars halfway through the race.

Developing the quick-change battery would be much more applicable to the real world then getting in another car when the battery is dead.

In other words, not really interested.

An android pit crew would be cool too

Batteries that can recharge in a pit stop are just not possible right now. Maybe in 20-30 years.

I am very curious, but I wish that they didn't swap cars, that's lame. Quick change battery packs, or just a shorter race, would have been infinitely preferable.

I would actually like to see more real-life EV racing, too, modified Leafs, Focuses and Volts playing around for 1/2 hour on a roadcourse in a heat/main type format like sprint cars use to keep run time low and race time up.

God that sound (Formula E) makes me want to go murder bunnies.

Curious at the best. This will be a Turn Left topic for sure.

Nashco wrote: This will come as no surprise, but I am VERY excited to see more EV racing getting not only lots of publicity, but LOTS more money than ever before. Great potential! (See what I did there?) Bryce

I am 100% on board with you Bryce. This looks like an awesome racing series. I like how they are doing a spec car to start to get people into it and then slowly working into constructors. It's like watching my old A/FX cars come to life!

Change cars? First I heard of that, do not like...

I get it, they're kinda built like the iPhone. Once the battery is dead, the device gets thrown away or recycled.

The only way I think it would make sense to require each team to have 3-4 working race cars that will see track time each weekend is to a) insure only big players with lots of money to spend get involved i.e. this is going to be the new F1, b) they are expecting teams to treat each car the way they currently treat tires i.e. a qualifying car, a 'fast' but quick discharge car, a 'slow' but longer distance car, etc, giving the teams multiple developmental chances, or c) they don't expect the initial crop of cars, particularly motors and battery packs, to be reliable.

I bet you if they made teams use the same battery pack that they would figure out a quick charge scenario in a lot less time than 20-30 years. Or if they had to swap battery packs three times, but only get 2 battery packs to use.

GameboyRMH wrote: Batteries that can recharge in a pit stop are just not possible right now. Maybe in 20-30 years.

THat would take huge amounts of electricity infrastructure I'd think and very high voltage, etc.

I mean literally a battery pack that can be swapped out quickly, like an RC car.

z31maniac wrote: I just wish they had introduced quick-change battery packs vs physically changing cars halfway through the race. Developing the quick-change battery would be much more applicable to the real world

Somehow I doubt it.

In the real world, there will be many differnt form factors depending on class of car. I.e. a Spark EV or Leaf will have a differnt size battery pack than a Volt sized car or a Tesla. in order to have a station have quick change battery packs on hand they'd have to have multiples of every form factor available, even if we standardized battery packs across every car manufacturer per car class (which I don't see happening). When you then multiply that by how many stations you'd need to have to make it viable nationwide for any sort of trip or errand running or commute out there, then the number of battery packs available at any time would be HUNDREDS of times more than there would be cars. So for every car made, there would be hundreds of available battery packs, which might use up resources pretty fast.

No, quick charge technology is going to be much more applicable in the real world, as it reduces the total number of battery packs that have to be made and stored.

z31maniac wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote: Batteries that can recharge in a pit stop are just not possible right now. Maybe in 20-30 years.

THat would take huge amounts of electricity infrastructure I'd think and very high voltage, etc. I mean literally a battery pack that can be swapped out quickly, like an RC car.

Yeah, he wrote "quick change" not "quick charge" - which is exactly where I think they ought to go. Quick charge isn't likely to ever happen at pit stop speeds.

The Leaf battery pack is 24 kw-hr, so assuming you are 100% efficient and my math is right, to charge in one minute, you need 1.4 megawatts. At 480V, that's 3,000 amps. 10x 0000 cables. Now, the F1-EV car will undoubtedly want more KW-Hr, and the packs are not 100% efficient at charging. Either way, some poor sap is hoisting several hundreds of pounds worth of copper over his back to charge the race car. I think a bigger battery pack with more capacity and/or a quicker changing solution is the right idea.

Quick charge is never going to drop to pit stop time levels. The sheer amount of energy involved is a real problem. I'll let someone else figure the temperatures involved, Warren's probably all over it already Charging batteries in 30 minutes is fine for the real world, but wouldn't work in racing.

For racing, a battery swap makes sense. Much more interesting watching the crews trying to make it happen than simply stepping into another car. In fact, changing cars simply reinforces the major problem with electric cars, which is range and recharge time.

Cambridge Crude could be pushed along by a racing series (not an engineer but ideal in my mind).

Either that or Elon Musks supercharging station vision with the crazy robotic arms to change battery packs. - Probably not ideal since you might get the crazy old worn out battery pack which kills your range when at home.

Either way a racing is a good way to develop the technology since the limitations surrounding electric cars really revolves around distance and time to charge. I wouldn't be opposed to either option but the major players need to get behind one or the other (or a whole other option!) to push along the electric car revolution if that's really where we are headed.

I'd settle for pebble bed reactors personally but politicians are opposed to that option.

Yeah I agree that battery swaps make sense for racing (I misread "quick change" as "quick charge" above, d'oh!) but it doesn't make sense for street-driven vehicles. On top of all the other problems already pointed out, in a few years there will be no need for it since your car will have plenty of range on top of quicker recharge times. Then all that hard-won battery-swapping infrastructure would be a silly and useless relic.

For racing on the other hand, I think quick change battery packs will make sense for quite a few decades to come, and there's practically no infrastructure cost. Driving flat out runs the packs down A LOT faster than street driving.

On the topic of quick charge, it could be possible to dump a terrifying amount of energy in the time span of a pit stop through the use of futuristic super-capacitors on both the charger and the car.

The in race charging may not be that crazy, or with an inductive charging racetrack they may be able to run like slot cars with little or no battery at all.

http://singularityhub.com/2013/08/25/korean-road-wirelessly-charges-new-electric-buses/

Korean Road Wirelessly Charges New Electric Buses

Electric vehicles still have limited range, expensive batteries, and few charging stations. While mainstream manufacturers seek to improve battery tech, the Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology (KAIST) has a different idea. Who needs big batteries and stations when the road itself can charge vehicles?

In July, two new buses began public service in the South Korean city, Gumi. The buses, or online electric vehicles (OLEVs), travel a road like a wireless cellphone charging mat—only, this particular mat is 7.5 miles long and cost $4 million to build.

How does it work? The buses are inductively charged throughout the route by 180 kW power sources periodically embedded in the road. KAIST says just 5% to 15% of an already existing road needs to be rebuilt to convert it into a wireless charger.

Each power source connects to the grid and is selectively turned on or off as a bus approaches and leaves. When on, the source produces a magnetic field that wirelessly transfers energy to a receiver underneath the bus. The magnetic field is converted back into an electric current and sent to the battery and motor.

http://www.brt.cl/new-siemens-electric-bus-rapid-transit-system/

The Siemens Electric Bus Rapid Transit system – or e-BRT for short – allows vehicles to run on electricity without overhead contact lines and without rails. The vehicles are quiet and comfortable, as they run on tires and electric motors.

Vehicles are equipped with electricity storage units that combine super-capacitors, batteries and converters, carrying enough power to reach the next stop. At each stop, the e-BRT vehicle is recharged for about 20 seconds, i.e. less time than passengers usually need to get on and off the bus. Electricity generated when the vehicles brake or slow down is also stored in the storage units.

GameboyRMH wrote: On the topic of quick charge, it could be possible to dump a terrifying amount of energy in the time span of a pit stop through the use of futuristic super-capacitors on both the charger and the car.

It may be possible for some futuristic battery to take all of that juice that fast without losing it, it may also be possible to engineer some quick way to deliver it all, but the fact remains that several hundred pounds of copper are going to be required to do it.

GameboyRMH wrote: On the topic of quick charge, it could be possible to dump a terrifying amount of energy in the time span of a pit stop through the use of futuristic super-capacitors on both the charger and the car.

The first thing that I pictured when I read that idea was the jury-rigged catenary system they used in Back to the Future. Complete with the pulse needed to charge the battery that quickly looking very much like a lightning bolt.

Back to the Future-style recharging would definitely add to the spectacle! A big zap of lightning every time the cars cross the start line would be awesome.

Of course, electric motorsports have been around for decades. The infrastructure isn't permanent and it's easy to shut down the track if there's an incident.

MadScientistMatt wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote: On the topic of quick charge, it could be possible to dump a terrifying amount of energy in the time span of a pit stop through the use of futuristic super-capacitors on both the charger and the car.

The first thing that I pictured when I read that idea was the jury-rigged catenary system they used in Back to the Future. Complete with the pulse needed to charge the battery that quickly looking very much like a lightning bolt.

Just as long as there's no damned Blue turtle shells being thrown around!

I could go on and on about battery swap vs. charging vs. run what you brung (etc.). I won't, as it won't affect anything except the wear pattern on my keyboard. However, as I understand it, part of the appeal for this event is the "extreme" younger types. The events are in major downtown city areas with lots of spectacle like music concerts and such. Part of the "extreme" drama they're trying to create is the driver having to dash from one car to another...it adds a unique element to the event and ALSO allows for longer races without any crazy infrastructure or safety compromises. Don't any of you miss races where the driver starts out of the car and has to buckle in before firing up the car and taking off? They sure are dramatic starts, and that's what the kids want these days...EXTREME DRAMA!

I'm just excited to see the development of PURE electric racers at a top tier level. This is a huge step, IMO, and I think it will really help to develop the technology outside OEM developments where limits can be pushed to the edge, unique approaches are necessary, and efficiency of the system is pinnacle. It's also cool that it's bringing racing back into cities, where noise, emissions, lack of political support, etc. has pushed racing out. Hopefully this gets people more willing to allow racing in cities, rather than less willing as has been the trend recently, and more exposure to real racing never hurts!

Now, if only I could get them to all use hybrid support trucks, I'd really be in business!

Bryce

There is a kart track near Albany that runs electric karts. My club is looking into an event. should be interesting to see ho they handle charging etc. a quick change battery would not be hard to do. Heck, even Nascar's often change batteries during a pit stop when the alternator dies.

iceracer: Nascar batteries don't hurt when you touch them, EV batteries do. Quick change batteries are easy. Quick change batteries that can withstand massive crashes without causing a safety hazard and can maintain a good power:weight ratio are not easy. Lots of organizations have talked about it, but in reality it's extremely complex. My college had an open wheel vehicle with quick change HV batteries (Formula Lightning, ancient SAE student racing project)...but knowing what I know now about high voltage safety I cringe at the dangers those vehicles presented. Ignorance is bliss?

There's a new electric kart track being built near me. I will be a frequent visitor, I expect. Makes tons of sense, but I think the biggest improvement will be in noise, fumes, and HVAC possibilities with a closed room and no gas engines.

Bryce

Thread resurrection: First race is the day after tomorrow, unfortunately with the epically terrible idea of "fanboost" in place

fanboost.fiaformulae.com

WTF were they thinking...