FR-S and BRZ sales are plummeting?

Toyota released the car and forgot about it. Offered no performance trim, no power, no brembo brakes. They forgot about it and so did the public. Good lesson on how NOT to market a vehicle.

Same with the 370Z. Costs what a Mustang GT costs with 80 less hp and is behind technologically and in design. Nissan forgot about it so now it's selling worst all time.

Japan in general is just is a malaise era that they just can't get out of.

The problem with the FRS is not size, it's not the market, it's not anything related to the public. It's that Toyota forgot that they are selling the car. Everyone who wanted a 200hp coupe with single piston brakes and poor wheel/tire setup bought one already. Everyone else moved on. If the car was supercharged, came with brembos, and had like 280+hp I would have bought it. Toyota showed no interest in selling a car at $30,000 unless it was filled with luxury garbage so I showed no interest in buying a malaise era vehicle. They had no interest in me as a customer. They wanted to sell to driftkids who only buy used vehicles and failed because of it.

They could have even just sold a sport trim instead of the current drifter trim and tried to bash the numbers in magazines to get people to want it. Refused to do that too. They just didn't want to try. When they said that their TRD supercharger would cost $15,000 I laughed and knew right then and there the car would fail.

Probably would have sold well in 1995.

After this Toyota will go back to trying to sell Lexus'

I don't understand the "failing in sales thing."

When the only press reports from Toyota on this car coming out contain negativity from the company.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: OK. Now I want one with a blown motor. Thanks a berkeleying lot.

Easier to find a RX8 and do that. Better car overall anyways.

An RX8 without the rotary penalty is what everyone was wanting from this FRS.

Swank Force One wrote: What better cars are out there for $25k?

Well being that used cars are so superior to this in terms of what people REALLY want (ie. power + handling) you could name those all day. As far as new?

WRX, Focus ST, Fiesta ST, Genesis 2.0t, Golf GTI, Mustang Ecoboost.

Unless you ONLY want RWD and ONLY want a dorifto all those cars are better. Genesis you have a weight penalty but you have good handling decent power and scalability as well as room. It only has one thing over those cars RWD or weight. It needs more than that. Fiesta ST and the new Golf GTI are significantly superior to the FRS from both a consumer and an enthusiasts standpoint and especially from a tuner standpoint.

Mustang Ecoboost and Genesis 2.0t are the kind of cars that in 1995 would cost $40,000 - $60,000. FRS is still a $12,000 240SX. I almost feel like there should be a superior JDM turbo version like there was with the Silvia. But there isn't.

^ This. I've owned a few 240SXs, but the market has advanced. I drove an FRS, I like how they look, interior ergos, handling, but at the end of the day just a bit slow and unspecial. I bought an S2000 instead, at least I get a vert and an engine with some verve. I would have bought a turbo FRS with say WRX output numbers. Nicer wheels wouldn't hurt either.

So, The Internet says that it should have been a $20k car.

Here's a CPO with 5k miles for $21k.

Not CPO, but below 5k mi and with some aftermarket wheels for $20.5k.

$16.5k, less than 4k mi, from a sketchy dealer

BRZs seem to be a little more expensive.

For reference, my 2003 SVT Focus with 31k mi was about $12k back in 2005. That's about $14.5k in 2014 dollars.

They aren't selling because they are too expensive for drifter kids, and not macho enough for the midlife crisis guy. That only leaves us hard core car enthusiasts, which is a perfect market segment to go broke in. They should've trimmed it like an econobox and sold it for sub $20K

This thread made me start looking for used R3s because I ain't fraid of no rotary. Found one near me for $16k. Not the color I'd like but I am just tirekicking so no big deal. But this was funny:

"Do you want it all, especially great fuel efficiency? Well, with this good-looking and fun 2009 Mazda RX-8, you are going to get it.."

Just as a counterpoint, I like the looks. The FR-S feels a bit more focused and faster than a 240SX, but similar size. I haven't driven an RX-8 for comparison, and if we are talking swaps it doesn't matter, but if we are talking stock, the 50%-100% better fuel mileage of the twins has to be a factor. I am in the enthusiast without kids segment, and for me, RWD and a fixed roof are mandatory. As the first real-world (more practical than an Elise, cheaper than a 911) car to tick those boxes with a focus on lightweight and driving dynamics, I put my money where my mouth is and bought one.

I wouldn't hang a poster of an FRS between the Ferrari 250 Lusso poster and the low-drag E type poster, but I don't get all the 'ugly' comments. For all those who think it is ugly, what other sporty cars do you like the aesthetics of? Yet another hatch with a hood/windshield slope that blend together and a A-pillar ending almost above the front wheels? Yet another car that relies upon huge grilles or pearl-necklace LEDs to try and stand out? I like the quintessential sports car low longish hood, and the nod to the 2000GT side window gets me every time I see it in profile.

I can't help the cause and buy a second one new just to bolster sales numbers, but do look forward to adding another to the fleet...used in a few years with engine trouble or a fender-bender salvage title and making a stripped-out track rat!

Sorry op, the car is boring

In reply to kanaric:

What $30k car are you talking about? Or was this the rhetorical 280hp 2700lb sport coupe with Brembos?

I dunno. I think the car is awesome, and it has rwd AND weight over half your list.

Of course, they failed at marketing it. They should have straight up said "We built a Miata coupe, but faster. And cheaper. You buy now."

Swank Force One wrote: What $30k car are you talking about? Or was this the rhetorical 280hp 2700lb sport coupe with Brembos?

How heavy is a Genesis 2.0t again?

Knurled wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: What $30k car are you talking about? Or was this the rhetorical 280hp 2700lb sport coupe with Brembos?

How heavy is a Genesis 2.0t again?

Somewhere in the neighborhood of 3400. The 3.6 track pack is about 3450. Heavier than my loaded WRX

it was slightly too late for me. When they came out my RX8 (speaking of sales & engine failures) was barely past the new car smell.

Congratulations secretariata on your purchase. http://www.ft86club.com/forums/ would be the forum to go to...

I think people are forgetting what the designer's intent of the car is - Tetsuya Tada fought hard and fiercely against FI/higher power from corporate pressure when trying to get the go ahead for the project. It will mostly likely never be FI from the factory, so if you are waiting for a factory FI model you'll probably forever be waiting. Things you get with the FRS standard: Quick ratio steering rack, Torque Biasing differential, VERY nice 6-speed manual transmission, chassis/suspension that makes a Miata seem dull and slow, and an interior that is everything it needs to be for a sports car in function and with overall excellent ergonomics.

This car was fully designed with the aftermarket in mind from the start though. Before the car was even released, aftermarket companies were directly involved with the manufacturer. It probably has the biggest aftermarket already of anything outside of a Honda hatchback and more supercharger and turbocharging options already than any other car I can think of...quite a few V8 conversions are coming out as well.

There are little things that are quite interesting about its design if you examine it up close... easiest clutch bleeding/refreshing job you'll ever do on any car. Less than 5 minutes with nothing more than than a wrench and fluid, no jacking or anything else required with the bleeder being right on top and to the rear of the motor on the transmission with direct, easy access from the top of the engine bay. Massive wheel wells designed to accept wide wheel/tire combo's. Who needs Brembo brake kits when you have an AP Racing kit specifically developed for the 86 that DROPS 20lbs unsprung weight off the front axle while massively upgrading the thermal capacity for much less cost, both initially and in consumables.

It's also probably the safest sports car ever made - these things have been in some really BAD accidents and have done remarkably well. High 5 star crash rating. Part of the reason for its safety, and consequently it's weight, is the Subaru chassis 'cage' design as used in Subaru's other models... A miata and S2000 are 'flimsy' tin cans in comparison. For a daily driver I'll take a 2,7xx lb sports car with the best safety design currently available in its segment available over 'better' cars with inherently less safety.

I'll just leave this interesting video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptWbvv2oTUQ

Swank Force One wrote: In reply to kanaric: What $30k car are you talking about? Or was this the rhetorical 280hp 2700lb sport coupe with Brembos? I dunno. I think the car is awesome, and it has rwd AND weight over half your list. Of course, they failed at marketing it. They should have straight up said "We built a Miata coupe, but faster. And cheaper. You buy now."

I agree.

Knurled wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: What $30k car are you talking about? Or was this the rhetorical 280hp 2700lb sport coupe with Brembos?

How heavy is a Genesis 2.0t again?

Heavier than anything i own. Including both my Cherokees.

THERE WAS NO HIGH-POWERED AE86.

It's a new AE86. It's what was promised, and that's what they delivered. 300lbs more than a miata and +50hp. Room for a full set of tires, and impressive performance once the aftermarket steps in.

It's gonna be a spectacular used car 5 years from now. It's got just about the same power-to-weight as an e36 328is which is considered an awesome track car. The main problem is that everything we love about those cars will void a new car warranty.

Low production numbers are awesome. 60k cars means that it's rarer than an E36 M3, but because of the hype all the aftermarket is already there.

Why didn't I get one? Because I don't buy depreciating cars. Used performance cars are an awesome deal these days, it's very hard to compete with what's already out there. A decent car will do 200k plus these days, cars just don't wear out like they used to.

The argument with the BRZ/FRS isn't if it's a good car. It is a good car for the masses, and an excellent car for an enthusiast. The simple fact is that the car doesn't work in the US market at it's current price point, it's too expensive. It needs to be sub $20k.

I disagree on the price point somewhat. Sub $20k cars these days are very, very cheap and usually slow econoboxes. Cars have gotten expensive whether we believe it or not. $30k is not that bad anymore, at least not to the general public. People keep throwing the Mustang around a lot as an alternative. I cruised the local lot this weekend, and getting an ecoboost that I would drive ended up being $36k. I saw only a couple below $30k, and they were strippers.

Back on topic, I bought a 370Z after test driving one. For a bit more money, OK, quite a bit more money, I got a lot more car. Mine was not going to be an autocross or track car, just a daily driver, and the 370 was better in that role. I will say the engine played a part in that I didn't warm up to the boxer. I've owned a Subaru before and it has always been my least favorite part.

Another issue that hasn't even been discussed is the Scion name. I have a few diehard MR2 guys tell me they will never, ever buy one because of the name. They simply think of Scion as being a cheap alternative and are offended, right or wrong, that it wasn't given a proper Toyota badge. And they are rabbid about it in the same way the Mini guys were when the MINI came out.

What I have found interesting about this car is that the people who complain are people that would not have bought the car under any circumstance:

"Does not have enough power" Enough power for what? Fact of the matter is that no car has enough power. Ask Jeremy Clarkson. If your really need a penis pump, buy one, don't buy a car. Reality is that most that voice this opinion will not buy any of the quoted competitors either.

"Kids wont fit in the back" The fact that you would even try makes me wonder about you. Of berkeleying course they wont, you are a minivan Zombie so you need to accept that. The world seems enamored of Zombies as of late, so revel in it!

"It is too expensive" Mostly from 18 years olds who are still looking for the first full time job.

"It's Ugly" Well, yeah, I got to give partial points for this. Love the rear 3/4 view, the front is like Darth Vader eating rice.

Racing and sports-cars have a commonality in that there are a million good reasons not to partake. However, IF you are inclined, none of them will matter. The rational people will always be found on the sidelines.

As to the topic of this post, I would like to hear from Toyota or Subaru that the sales are insufficient.

It's the same people that somehow... like Miatas. But definitely won't buy a new one because it only has 155hp.

racerdave600 wrote: I disagree on the price point somewhat. Sub $20k cars these days are very, very cheap and usually slow econoboxes. Cars have gotten expensive whether we believe it or not. $30k is not that bad anymore, at least not to the general public.

I agree, you're just not going to be able to do much with less than $20k as an MSRP.

I like a car that can get up to 80mph sometime this millenia. The frisbee's don't, as at my altitude they're making ~150hp.

That's adequate for some, but not for me.

docwyte wrote: I like a car that can get up to 80mph sometime this millenia. The frisbee's don't, as at my altitude they're making ~150hp. That's adequate for some, but not for me.

The calculator I found said 170hp

But for those of us who don't live at big altitudes, the low 6sec 0-60 is plenty quick.

z31maniac wrote:

docwyte wrote: I like a car that can get up to 80mph sometime this millenia. The frisbee's don't, as at my altitude they're making ~150hp. That's adequate for some, but not for me.

The calculator I found said 170hp But for those of us who don't live at big altitudes, the low 6sec 0-60 is plenty quick.

(time for my annual knock on the frisbees!)

Plenty quick, and quicker than my (NB and daily driven) Miata. But it doesn't feel quicker, and that is the problem. It would be primarily a street driven car, and the sensation of speed is much more important than the actual speed. Seeing as I live in a place with few corners that I can actually throw the car into, I'm not seeing the greatness of teh vehicle. If I lived somwhere with twisties, I'm sure I'd love it.

I would like to try one with a tune. I guess it really doesn't matter though; I'm selling the Miata and replacing it with nothing; SWMBO and I will be sharing her Corolla. I'm officially a boring person.
Does the Frisbee fit a carseat in the back? I don't think we'll have 2 cars again until we have kids.

Well the car obviously isn't selling at it's current price

irish44j wrote:

Knurled wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: What $30k car are you talking about? Or was this the rhetorical 280hp 2700lb sport coupe with Brembos?

How heavy is a Genesis 2.0t again?

Somewhere in the neighborhood of 3400. The 3.6 track pack is about 3450. Heavier than my loaded WRX

....